VADOE adjustments to advanced math track

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know how to properly use Logits, Probits, Regressions, and can run simultaneous equations with the best of them. I know the diagnostic tools to run, what questions to ask to use the best fit and most approrpiate method, how to correct various issues. I never had calculus and I cannot do the proofs for the various probability distributions and applications but I can still understand the stats and how to use them properly.

There is a lot you can do in this world without calculus.

DS is on track for Algebra in 7th grade and will take Calculus and other advanced math because he loves math. He loves the competitions and he wants to do math. Which is great. More power to him.

There is already a math track that includes data and stats that is not Calculus based so I am not so certain why we need to adjust this. Maybeit is more about adjusting parents expectations and how we guide students then changing the existing tracks.

As the skeptical person you were probably responding to, it's not that I don't think someone can do data science without calculus, it's that I think a high school class in data science without calculus isn't going to be worth anything. The "data science" pathway, as described, was intended for populations like pre-nursing students, and was not intended to require a stats background. The course would have to be *really* watered down in order to not fail the significant fraction of the students who couldn't make heads or tails of e.g. using Python to clean up a dataset, and it would have been.

I agree. I hope they'll appropriately name the course title along the lines of "Talking about Data" vs dishonestly calling it "Data Science".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know how to properly use Logits, Probits, Regressions, and can run simultaneous equations with the best of them. I know the diagnostic tools to run, what questions to ask to use the best fit and most approrpiate method, how to correct various issues. I never had calculus and I cannot do the proofs for the various probability distributions and applications but I can still understand the stats and how to use them properly.

There is a lot you can do in this world without calculus.

DS is on track for Algebra in 7th grade and will take Calculus and other advanced math because he loves math. He loves the competitions and he wants to do math. Which is great. More power to him.

There is already a math track that includes data and stats that is not Calculus based so I am not so certain why we need to adjust this. Maybeit is more about adjusting parents expectations and how we guide students then changing the existing tracks.

As the skeptical person you were probably responding to, it's not that I don't think someone can do data science without calculus, it's that I think a high school class in data science without calculus isn't going to be worth anything. The "data science" pathway, as described, was intended for populations like pre-nursing students, and was not intended to require a stats background. The course would have to be *really* watered down in order to not fail the significant fraction of the students who couldn't make heads or tails of e.g. using Python to clean up a dataset, and it would have been.

Really? I'd say that stats and programming are core skills for "data science", but not calculus. The vast majority of work does not involve calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It appears that the VA DOE plans implement VMPI under a different name.

It is true there is a law requiring a review of the math SOL every 7 years; 2022 is the year.

Looks like DOE will try to disguise VMPI as the periodic math curriculum review.

They plan to have different “pathways” like data science (SOL standards already up for review) instead of calculus. Not sure if they also plan to push more project-based, student-led junk like the VMPI page had.

Don’t think removing math acceleration will be on the table officially. For that keep a hawk eye on E3 here in FCPS. Parents report this program at a few schools is everyone in a clustered local level IV getting “advanced” math, meaning no one is. E3 is FCPS’s plan for advanced math moving forward and parents should be aware of it.

Data Science would be a much better track for my kid than Calculus (same would have been true for me, and I took several years of college math)... I hope that pathway/option makes it into the curriculum before they hit Grade 12 in a few years.

I am in favor of bringing back alternate pathways - I think, for example, the old consumer math track, which was destroyed after the EVERYONE MUST GO TO COLLEGE push, offered real value and practical skills for people who took it. But the alternate pathways that DOE was talking about didn't look anything like that. In the VMPI presentation I watched, one of the presenters waxed eloquently about how a high school student looking forward to a nursing or allied health care degree would take a super relevant Data Science class. Relevant to almost no-one in either nursing or allied health. What these students need -- and take formally at many institutions -- is medical math: a course in how to rapidly calculate dosages, IV flow rates, and perform unit conversion, generally through non-approved by VMPI methods, like memorizing multiplication tables.

Anyway, I work in a tangential-to-data-science area and non-calculus data science is mainly going to be a useless collection of buzzwords. Probability & Statistics would be a much better option for a student reasonably solid in algebra.

Really? Seems like there is a ton that doesn’t require calculus.

These skills seem more helpful than calculus to anyone who has to manipulate a data set in a professional environment (not STEM):

https://hsdatascience.youcubed.org/curriculum/

https://www.ucladatascienceed.org/introduction-to-data-science-curriculum

“ This curriculum will introduce students to the main ideas in data science through free tools such as Google Sheets, Python, Data Commons and Tableau. Students will learn to be data explorers in project-based units, through which they will develop their understanding of data analysis, sampling, correlation/causation, bias and uncertainty, probability, modeling with data, making and evaluating data-based arguments, the power of data in society, and more! At the end of the course students will have a portfolio of their data science work to showcase their newly developed abilities.”

Sheesh, they're planning on doing Python's data science modules? Are they making computer science a prereq?

I'm sure most kids will having some kind of programming skills by that point, but it doesn't look like it's required.

This particular curriculum uses Colab to guide students through a taste of what Python can do:
https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1lgAV2IYcMTKIKJ-ziQALO34PXZQiiGz-

Pretty cool. Probably fun than Matlab for most people.

I read that link as a programmer who can code Python (though I don't day to day). I'm trying to remember being 14 and learning C and wondering if I could use that code to do my own work, and I'm not sure I could have, but it's been a long time.

I don't think kids coming out of that class will be proficient in Python. Looks like they are mostly trying to show how tools like Python can be used to manipulate and visual data - along with other tools. It could spark an interest for kids to learn it for real. Remember it's just a HS-level intro class.

I love data and would have enjoyed a class like this - in addition to stats, calculus, etc.

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know how to properly use Logits, Probits, Regressions, and can run simultaneous equations with the best of them. I know the diagnostic tools to run, what questions to ask to use the best fit and most approrpiate method, how to correct various issues. I never had calculus and I cannot do the proofs for the various probability distributions and applications but I can still understand the stats and how to use them properly.

There is a lot you can do in this world without calculus.

DS is on track for Algebra in 7th grade and will take Calculus and other advanced math because he loves math. He loves the competitions and he wants to do math. Which is great. More power to him.

There is already a math track that includes data and stats that is not Calculus based so I am not so certain why we need to adjust this. Maybeit is more about adjusting parents expectations and how we guide students then changing the existing tracks.

As the skeptical person you were probably responding to, it's not that I don't think someone can do data science without calculus, it's that I think a high school class in data science without calculus isn't going to be worth anything. The "data science" pathway, as described, was intended for populations like pre-nursing students, and was not intended to require a stats background. The course would have to be *really* watered down in order to not fail the significant fraction of the students who couldn't make heads or tails of e.g. using Python to clean up a dataset, and it would have been.

Really? I'd say that stats and programming are core skills for "data science", but not calculus. The vast majority of work does not involve calculus.

Once can certainly do plenty of stuff without calculus, but the main problem is that it's very hard to understand what anything really means without a good understanding of statistics. And it's very hard to understand statistics without a good grounding in probability. And it's very hard to understand things like continuous probability distributions without calculus. I think the point is that the students are very likely going to be taught by rote in a data science class, to the point where they will likely not have much of an idea about what they are doing. Additionally if the focus would be less on data science and more on the practical aspect of working with data (due to the lack of mathematics/calculus experience mentioned above), then they will have to teach the students how to manipulate data effectively, which is not a trivial task to teach to students without some good prior programming experience.

It's a tricky thing to try to effectively teach data science and they should have a solid plan for doing that, otherwise it could be a completely watered down experience. I would suggest that having some sort of programming background/class should be a prerequisite as a minimum.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know how to properly use Logits, Probits, Regressions, and can run simultaneous equations with the best of them. I know the diagnostic tools to run, what questions to ask to use the best fit and most approrpiate method, how to correct various issues. I never had calculus and I cannot do the proofs for the various probability distributions and applications but I can still understand the stats and how to use them properly.

There is a lot you can do in this world without calculus.

DS is on track for Algebra in 7th grade and will take Calculus and other advanced math because he loves math. He loves the competitions and he wants to do math. Which is great. More power to him.

There is already a math track that includes data and stats that is not Calculus based so I am not so certain why we need to adjust this. Maybeit is more about adjusting parents expectations and how we guide students then changing the existing tracks.

As the skeptical person you were probably responding to, it's not that I don't think someone can do data science without calculus, it's that I think a high school class in data science without calculus isn't going to be worth anything. The "data science" pathway, as described, was intended for populations like pre-nursing students, and was not intended to require a stats background. The course would have to be *really* watered down in order to not fail the significant fraction of the students who couldn't make heads or tails of e.g. using Python to clean up a dataset, and it would have been.

Really? I'd say that stats and programming are core skills for "data science", but not calculus. The vast majority of work does not involve calculus.

Once can certainly do plenty of stuff without calculus, but the main problem is that it's very hard to understand what anything really means without a good understanding of statistics. And it's very hard to understand statistics without a good grounding in probability. And it's very hard to understand things like continuous probability distributions without calculus. I think the point is that the students are very likely going to be taught by rote in a data science class, to the point where they will likely not have much of an idea about what they are doing. Additionally if the focus would be less on data science and more on the practical aspect of working with data (due to the lack of mathematics/calculus experience mentioned above), then they will have to teach the students how to manipulate data effectively, which is not a trivial task to teach to students without some good prior programming experience.

It's a tricky thing to try to effectively teach data science and they should have a solid plan for doing that, otherwise it could be a completely watered down experience. I would suggest that having some sort of programming background/class should be a prerequisite as a minimum.

Programmer here. That was my point above. The examples linked by PP weren't just trivial code. They required an understanding of how coding works to be able to read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know how to properly use Logits, Probits, Regressions, and can run simultaneous equations with the best of them. I know the diagnostic tools to run, what questions to ask to use the best fit and most approrpiate method, how to correct various issues. I never had calculus and I cannot do the proofs for the various probability distributions and applications but I can still understand the stats and how to use them properly.

There is a lot you can do in this world without calculus.

DS is on track for Algebra in 7th grade and will take Calculus and other advanced math because he loves math. He loves the competitions and he wants to do math. Which is great. More power to him.

There is already a math track that includes data and stats that is not Calculus based so I am not so certain why we need to adjust this. Maybeit is more about adjusting parents expectations and how we guide students then changing the existing tracks.

As the skeptical person you were probably responding to, it's not that I don't think someone can do data science without calculus, it's that I think a high school class in data science without calculus isn't going to be worth anything. The "data science" pathway, as described, was intended for populations like pre-nursing students, and was not intended to require a stats background. The course would have to be *really* watered down in order to not fail the significant fraction of the students who couldn't make heads or tails of e.g. using Python to clean up a dataset, and it would have been.

Really? I'd say that stats and programming are core skills for "data science", but not calculus. The vast majority of work does not involve calculus.

Once can certainly do plenty of stuff without calculus, but the main problem is that it's very hard to understand what anything really means without a good understanding of statistics. And it's very hard to understand statistics without a good grounding in probability. And it's very hard to understand things like continuous probability distributions without calculus. I think the point is that the students are very likely going to be taught by rote in a data science class, to the point where they will likely not have much of an idea about what they are doing. Additionally if the focus would be less on data science and more on the practical aspect of working with data (due to the lack of mathematics/calculus experience mentioned above), then they will have to teach the students how to manipulate data effectively, which is not a trivial task to teach to students without some good prior programming experience.

It's a tricky thing to try to effectively teach data science and they should have a solid plan for doing that, otherwise it could be a completely watered down experience. I would suggest that having some sort of programming background/class should be a prerequisite as a minimum.

Programmer here. That was my point above. The examples linked by PP weren't just trivial code. They required an understanding of how coding works to be able to read.

Oh FFS, you can take a stats class - even in college - without calculus. You can certainly understand the concept of various models/distributions even if you don't do the grunt work underlying calculus.

This particular course is an example of a high-school level introductory class. They don't need calculus - or even stats - for it to be meaningful.

It could be the first in a series of data science courses to create a new pathway. Higher-level courses could require stats/programming.

Here is an example of a UVA course that looks like it covers similar topics:
STAT 1602 Introduction to Data Science with Python
This course provides an introduction to various topics in data science using the Python programming language. The course will start with the basics of Python, and apply them to data cleaning, merging, transformation, and analytic methods drawn from data science analysis and statistics, with an emphasis on applications. No prior experience with programming, data science, or statistics is required. Credits: 3
https://statistics.as.virginia.edu/courses

[Anonymous]

I'm not understanding this general pushback for VA to update the curriculum to stay in line with evolving careers/technology.

Why wouldn't we adapt and add/update pathways?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Here is an example of a UVA course that looks like it covers similar topics:
STAT 1602 Introduction to Data Science with Python
This course provides an introduction to various topics in data science using the Python programming language. The course will start with the basics of Python, and apply them to data cleaning, merging, transformation, and analytic methods drawn from data science analysis and statistics, with an emphasis on applications. No prior experience with programming, data science, or statistics is required. Credits: 3
https://statistics.as.virginia.edu/courses

They don't indicate the math prerequisites for the course. Are they even accepting people into the UVA Statistics Department who didn't take Calculus in high school?

I could maybe see Data Science as a high school pathway that requires high school stats or AP stats as a prerequisite. The notion that kids could do much of anything with data science if they haven't even taken basic stats is absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not understanding this general pushback for VA to update the curriculum to stay in line with evolving careers/technology.

Why wouldn't we adapt and add/update pathways?

We should adapt and update pathways. The Data Science pathway is nonsense. Kids who want to become data scientists or analysts absolutely need calculus. The Data Science pathway should be an alternative to Multivariable Calc/Linear Algebra and not to Calc itself. There also is already a non calc based stats pathway for non-math oriented kids (AP stats or Probability & Statistics).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Here is an example of a UVA course that looks like it covers similar topics:
STAT 1602 Introduction to Data Science with Python
This course provides an introduction to various topics in data science using the Python programming language. The course will start with the basics of Python, and apply them to data cleaning, merging, transformation, and analytic methods drawn from data science analysis and statistics, with an emphasis on applications. No prior experience with programming, data science, or statistics is required. Credits: 3
https://statistics.as.virginia.edu/courses

They don't indicate the math prerequisites for the course. Are they even accepting people into the UVA Statistics Department who didn't take Calculus in high school?

I could maybe see Data Science as a high school pathway that requires high school stats or AP stats as a prerequisite. The notion that kids could do much of anything with data science if they haven't even taken basic stats is absurd.

The UVA course is an intro level and not necessarily just for stats majors. Seems like there is enough intro material to cover for HS kids and non-stats majors. 🤷

I wouldn't expect someone taking intro to engineering to walk out of that class and be ready to become a PE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not understanding this general pushback for VA to update the curriculum to stay in line with evolving careers/technology.

Why wouldn't we adapt and add/update pathways?

We should adapt and update pathways. The Data Science pathway is nonsense. Kids who want to become data scientists or analysts absolutely need calculus. The Data Science pathway should be an alternative to Multivariable Calc/Linear Algebra and not to Calc itself. There also is already a non calc based stats pathway for non-math oriented kids (AP stats or Probability & Statistics).

I don't expect people who have only taken HS biology to go out and become biologists.

The vast majority of data science does NOT require calculus. Sure stats & programming would be very helpful, but don't seem to be prerequisites for these intro level courses.

[Anonymous]

Also, even if none of the kids who take an intro to data science course go on to become data scientists they will still gain skills and general knowledge that will be helpful across many industries/careers. Much more so than calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, even if none of the kids who take an intro to data science course go on to become data scientists they will still gain skills and general knowledge that will be helpful across many industries/careers. Much more so than calculus.

The problem is that it would be so superficially done that none of the kids will retain a thing. If you aren't requiring advanced math and you also aren't requiring programming skills, then the class would amount to a lot of copying code snippets that the kids don't understand to make graphs for which they would then give a superficial, general "analysis." It really is garbage. It's also not comparable to the UVA class, since that's a college class with college level expectations, and the supposed data science class is a high school one presumably targeting the kids weaker in math. They won't be able to cover anything of any real substance.

AP stats is a lovely class for the kids who are good at math but don't intend a STEM major and don't want calculus. Probability and Stats is a fine class for the kids weaker in math who don't want pre-calc or calc. A high school data science class that does not require calculus, stats, or programming as a prerequisite will just provide a weaker option than the already existing ones, albeit with a trendy buzzword attached.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, even if none of the kids who take an intro to data science course go on to become data scientists they will still gain skills and general knowledge that will be helpful across many industries/careers. Much more so than calculus.

The problem is that it would be so superficially done that none of the kids will retain a thing. If you aren't requiring advanced math and you also aren't requiring programming skills, then the class would amount to a lot of copying code snippets that the kids don't understand to make graphs for which they would then give a superficial, general "analysis." It really is garbage. It's also not comparable to the UVA class, since that's a college class with college level expectations, and the supposed data science class is a high school one presumably targeting the kids weaker in math. They won't be able to cover anything of any real substance.

AP stats is a lovely class for the kids who are good at math but don't intend a STEM major and don't want calculus. Probability and Stats is a fine class for the kids weaker in math who don't want pre-calc or calc. A high school data science class that does not require calculus, stats, or programming as a prerequisite will just provide a weaker option than the already existing ones, albeit with a trendy buzzword attached.

Data science may be "weaker" than AP stats/calculus, but it offers a lot of practical skills/knowledge that kids are more likely to retain. I look at data almost every day in my professional and personal life. I never use calculus.

For most kids, these courses seem way more interesting and practical than AP stats.
https://curriculum.idsucla.org/scope/
https://hsdatascience.youcubed.org/curriculum/

Penn & Columbia think it's a worthwhile subject for HS kids:
https://globalyouth.wharton.upenn.edu/data-science-academy/
https://precollege.sps.columbia.edu/highschool/summer-immersion-new-york-city/courses/3-week/big-data-machine-learning-and-applied-analytics

And, finally, here is a great explanation for the importance of data science for HS kids:
https://hdsr.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/wtzfot43/release/2
"Even if one is not aiming to become a professional in the field, being a data-literate person is extremely important for everyday life. Data helps us be well-informed citizens and make decisions, from choosing a career path or school, to understanding the news, to knowing how we receive our music, movie, and product recommendations, and even to understanding how social media news reaffirms our political beliefs."


I would have thought that a state with thriving tech industry like VA would be trying to stay up-to-date on tech skills. But maybe we aren't as forward thinking as I assumed.

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, even if none of the kids who take an intro to data science course go on to become data scientists they will still gain skills and general knowledge that will be helpful across many industries/careers. Much more so than calculus.

The problem is that it would be so superficially done that none of the kids will retain a thing. If you aren't requiring advanced math and you also aren't requiring programming skills, then the class would amount to a lot of copying code snippets that the kids don't understand to make graphs for which they would then give a superficial, general "analysis." It really is garbage. It's also not comparable to the UVA class, since that's a college class with college level expectations, and the supposed data science class is a high school one presumably targeting the kids weaker in math. They won't be able to cover anything of any real substance.

AP stats is a lovely class for the kids who are good at math but don't intend a STEM major and don't want calculus. Probability and Stats is a fine class for the kids weaker in math who don't want pre-calc or calc. A high school data science class that does not require calculus, stats, or programming as a prerequisite will just provide a weaker option than the already existing ones, albeit with a trendy buzzword attached.

Data science may be "weaker" than AP stats/calculus, but it offers a lot of practical skills/knowledge that kids are more likely to retain. I look at data almost every day in my professional and personal life. I never use calculus.

For most kids, these courses seem way more interesting and practical than AP stats.
https://curriculum.idsucla.org/scope/
https://hsdatascience.youcubed.org/curriculum/

Penn & Columbia think it's a worthwhile subject for HS kids:
https://globalyouth.wharton.upenn.edu/data-science-academy/
https://precollege.sps.columbia.edu/highschool/summer-immersion-new-york-city/courses/3-week/big-data-machine-learning-and-applied-analytics

And, finally, here is a great explanation for the importance of data science for HS kids:
https://hdsr.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/wtzfot43/release/2
"Even if one is not aiming to become a professional in the field, being a data-literate person is extremely important for everyday life. Data helps us be well-informed citizens and make decisions, from choosing a career path or school, to understanding the news, to knowing how we receive our music, movie, and product recommendations, and even to understanding how social media news reaffirms our political beliefs."


I would have thought that a state with thriving tech industry like VA would be trying to stay up-to-date on tech skills. But maybe we aren't as forward thinking as I assumed.

It will depend on the curriculum and goals they come up with for the course(s). I'm skeptical at this point without that information; at a minimum I'd like to see a list of course objectives. They can definitely come up with a good and rigorous data science course, but it will likely need some prerequisites, which implies that it would go against the aim of it being an alternative for kids who don't want calculus.

It would be pretty unreasonable to suggest that one can take a data science course without any programming experience; there is no way a typical high school student could properly learn both programming and math/stats needed in the same course. An ideal data science course focused on practical programming using data should be at the level of a second CS course. This is not an unreasonable prerequisite, given that many kids these days take a programming course early on in high school.