Study shows that 350k/year is barely scrapping by as middle class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AIs in Mexico and the Dominican are like the definition of middle class

y'all need to get over to the travel board and see what they say on these things.

"Please rec a luxurious AI."

Answer

"No such thing! AIs are peopled by poors gavel."

I don't even know what "AI" is. What is this discussion even about? If you can afford annual vacations with air travel to foreign resorts, you're not Middle Class. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A typical vacation not at a relatives house not camping costs about $1000/day. You could budget and get by with $3700 for a week. That’s going somewhere like Disney or cruise — MC vacation.

Maybe in your universe. If you fly, stay at expensive hotels and eat out 3 meals a day plus do only paid activities.

I can tell you haven’t been on vacation lately. I’m not talking about driving to the beach. But you do you.

DRIVING TO THE BEACH IS A MIDDLE CLASS VACATION.

Flying to a more exotic locale, and eating out for most lunches/dinners, is a UMC vacation.

Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous. 2 summers ago we went to Switzerland for a week- we did not have miles/ CC points for the flights, so the flights for our family of 4 were 3.5k. Then we spent about another 1.5k on lodging for the week. We ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point. We still kept total costs to under 6k. So that's under 1k a day for a European vacation to an expensive country, including airfare costs that were not offset by anything.

I don't think you have established what you were trying to.

First, you say that "Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous."

OK, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint (though it's obvious that you don't ski . . . but I digress.)

But then you say you went to Switzerland for a week, and air fare and lodging were $5000. You claim to have spend less that $1000 for the entire rest of the trip - $143 each day, for a family of four, including food, activities, transportation, etc. Assuming I believe you, and I'm not sure I do, you admit that you "ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point." Great. But it is entirely reasonable to go to Switzerland and *not* want to do it on the cheap. You were close to $1000 a day anyway - Spending an extra $150 a day gets you there. Heck, a couple of nice dinners for four get you there.

So yes, you can go to Europe for cheap. But (i) you didn't do that, and (ii) you were close to $1000/day as it is. It's not at all ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a real example of how 350K can be Middle Class.

I was living in a paid off house with a stay at home wife and no kids in college making that much money. I would got to Turks and Caicos on vacation, buy wife a new car, had a BMW.

Well job ended, had to get new one. Same salary, much more expensive location and had to move. Now I have mortgage and my house costs me $3,700 a year. My kid started college and I have a second one starting in Fall. My college I am doing out of non-college savings as I only have enough for youngest and may be forced in early retirement. I will pay in Fall $8,000 a month for college on ten payment plan. Now I do $2,000 a month in 401k,

So I am up to $13,700 a month. Rest of bills car insurance, kids, food, you name it around $4,000 a month. So I am at $17,7000 month budget.

I cant afford nothing, have not been on a real vacation in three years. My car is a nine year old american car overdue for an oil change. My wife a 8 year old american car.

You're an idiot. You have no college savings and have spent your money on vacations and BMWs. Had you exercised judgment back in the day, you would be fine.

Our HHI is half yours and we have two kids in college right now. Our day to day lives are *less* expensive than they used to be, because we are paying for two college educations at once entirely from savings. No need to touch current income.

Oh, and our cars are nine years old. So re: your wife's 8yo "american" car? Cry me a river.

I have to agree. At one point, we were making $400K, high col area, but, we still saved as much as we could. We did not live like we made $400K even in a high col. I drove an old car; our biggest vacation was visiting family in Europe every few years. Our HHI has gone down because we moved to a lower COL area, BUT, we still live the same way. I still drive that same old car. Our financial advisor (service is free from our financial institution) told us we don't live like we make x amount, that people around here spend way more than we do with that same level of income, and that we could up our expense and still be ok. My response to that was, "Why would I do that"?

Don't get me wrong.. we live comfortably. We still go to Europe every couple of years to visit family, and other fun places. That is our one big splurge. But, we make sure college and retirement is fully funded first, AND make sure we have a comfortable six to eight month rainy day fun.

Save when you have the money. Yes, you can spend a bit more and treat yourself, but too many people live like that party is never going to end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your definition of MC/UMC. If you live in s DC suburb with kids, 2 or more cars, save for retirement still have a mortgage, and need to pay for college (our instate is 43K a year total) or need to pay for daycare then yes $250-350 only funds a MC lifestyle.

No, what's LEFT OVER after you pay for the expensive house you own, the multiple cars, the retirement savings and the college savings only funds a lifestyle that you call middle-class.

Right? The truly middle class in this country have trouble saving enough for college/retirement/emergencies. They are one big expense or financial mistake away from having a really tough time. They either do not go on international/expensive vacations or save for years and/or going into debt to do so.

I grew up middle class. Rarely went out to eat, only flew a plane once before the age of 18. The only college savings I had was what I saved from my parttime job in high school. I am seriously worried about my parents' retirement. THAT is middle-class my friend. Our HHI is $175 and YES this is an expensive area but I feel very fortunate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your definition of MC/UMC. If you live in s DC suburb with kids, 2 or more cars, save for retirement still have a mortgage, and need to pay for college (our instate is 43K a year total) or need to pay for daycare then yes $250-350 only funds a MC lifestyle.

No, what's LEFT OVER after you pay for the expensive house you own, the multiple cars, the retirement savings and the college savings only funds a lifestyle that you call middle-class.

Right? The truly middle class in this country have trouble saving enough for college/retirement/emergencies. They are one big expense or financial mistake away from having a really tough time. They either do not go on international/expensive vacations or save for years and/or going into debt to do so.

I grew up middle class. Rarely went out to eat, only flew a plane once before the age of 18. The only college savings I had was what I saved from my parttime job in high school. I am seriously worried about my parents' retirement. THAT is middle-class my friend. Our HHI is $175 and YES this is an expensive area but I feel very fortunate.

That was the PPs point. You misunderstood her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your definition of MC/UMC. If you live in s DC suburb with kids, 2 or more cars, save for retirement still have a mortgage, and need to pay for college (our instate is 43K a year total) or need to pay for daycare then yes $250-350 only funds a MC lifestyle.

No, what's LEFT OVER after you pay for the expensive house you own, the multiple cars, the retirement savings and the college savings only funds a lifestyle that you call middle-class.

Right? The truly middle class in this country have trouble saving enough for college/retirement/emergencies. They are one big expense or financial mistake away from having a really tough time. They either do not go on international/expensive vacations or save for years and/or going into debt to do so.

I grew up middle class. Rarely went out to eat, only flew a plane once before the age of 18. The only college savings I had was what I saved from my parttime job in high school. I am seriously worried about my parents' retirement. THAT is middle-class my friend. Our HHI is $175 and YES this is an expensive area but I feel very fortunate.

That was the PPs point. You misunderstood her.

Actually I was agreeing with the immediate PP, sorry if that wasn't clear. There's a huge difference between feeling like you can't fund the lifestyle you want after paying for an expensive house and fully funding all of your saving priorities vs. never being able to afford an expensive house or save in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AIs in Mexico and the Dominican are like the definition of middle class

y'all need to get over to the travel board and see what they say on these things.

"Please rec a luxurious AI."

Answer

"No such thing! AIs are peopled by poors gavel."

I don't even know what "AI" is. What is this discussion even about? If you can afford annual vacations with air travel to foreign resorts, you're not Middle Class. Period.

An AI is an "All In" resort. This is one where everything but the alcohol and tourist gifts are included. So food is included, Think of it like a cruise with the food included, but just at a land-based resort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your definition of MC/UMC. If you live in s DC suburb with kids, 2 or more cars, save for retirement still have a mortgage, and need to pay for college (our instate is 43K a year total) or need to pay for daycare then yes $250-350 only funds a MC lifestyle.

No, you are wrong. Even in the high COL cities, there are plenty of MC/UMC who live on true MC incomes of $75-150K annual salary. The fallacy is that some people are adding luxury upcharges to their definition of the middle class standard. For example, you say "a DC suburb" when you mean the affluent DC suburbs. You talk about 2 cars, but you mean 2 more expensive or newer cars. You say college costs 43K total, but UVA is $16K for in-state and UMD is $10-13K for in-state tuition. UDC is $5200 for in-state. You can certainly get room, board and books for less than $27K a year. You say daycare, but I posted above how a normal middle class family living in the DC suburbs has daycare for 2 for $10K per year.

The truth is that here on DCUM, the entitled lower upper class views MoCo and N Arlington as typical MC suburbs when they aren't. Due to the population growth in this region over the last 40 years, N Arlington, McLean, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, Upper NWDC all used to be middle class bastions, but that hasn't been true for at least the last 20 years. For the last 20 years, they are now reaches for the UMC and are the homes of the upper class, perhaps the bottom of the upper class. UMC who move to these areas have to make compromises in other ways to live there or find themselves truly strapped.

There are plenty of MC and UMC who survive quite easily in PG County, Charles County, Howard County, Loudoun County and Prince William County. You could even live in parts of Montgomery County, Arlington or Fairfax County in a lower rated school zone. You pay a luxury upcharge to live close-in and in a good school zone. Middle class often don't have the luxury of living in a SFH in the best school zones. They have to compromise somewhere--renting instead of owning, getting a smaller home instead of a middle or big sized home, or a lesser rated school.

I know plenty who have two paid off cars that they bought 2-3 years old and drive them into the ground.

You think you're including middle class standards but you aren't. You are upgrading middle class standards and trying to sell the upgrades as middle class, but they aren't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your definition of MC/UMC. If you live in s DC suburb with kids, 2 or more cars, save for retirement still have a mortgage, and need to pay for college (our instate is 43K a year total) or need to pay for daycare then yes $250-350 only funds a MC lifestyle.

No, you are wrong. Even in the high COL cities, there are plenty of MC/UMC who live on true MC incomes of $75-150K annual salary. The fallacy is that some people are adding luxury upcharges to their definition of the middle class standard. For example, you say "a DC suburb" when you mean the affluent DC suburbs. You talk about 2 cars, but you mean 2 more expensive or newer cars. You say college costs 43K total, but UVA is $16K for in-state and UMD is $10-13K for in-state tuition. UDC is $5200 for in-state. You can certainly get room, board and books for less than $27K a year. You say daycare, but I posted above how a normal middle class family living in the DC suburbs has daycare for 2 for $10K per year.

The truth is that here on DCUM, the entitled lower upper class views MoCo and N Arlington as typical MC suburbs when they aren't. Due to the population growth in this region over the last 40 years, N Arlington, McLean, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, Upper NWDC all used to be middle class bastions, but that hasn't been true for at least the last 20 years. For the last 20 years, they are now reaches for the UMC and are the homes of the upper class, perhaps the bottom of the upper class. UMC who move to these areas have to make compromises in other ways to live there or find themselves truly strapped.

There are plenty of MC and UMC who survive quite easily in PG County, Charles County, Howard County, Loudoun County and Prince William County. You could even live in parts of Montgomery County, Arlington or Fairfax County in a lower rated school zone. You pay a luxury upcharge to live close-in and in a good school zone. Middle class often don't have the luxury of living in a SFH in the best school zones. They have to compromise somewhere--renting instead of owning, getting a smaller home instead of a middle or big sized home, or a lesser rated school.

I know plenty who have two paid off cars that they bought 2-3 years old and drive them into the ground.

You think you're including middle class standards but you aren't. You are upgrading middle class standards and trying to sell the upgrades as middle class, but they aren't.

+1 to most of this although I don't think those daycare costs are the norm at all. We are in Silver Spring and I looked at a LOT of daycares, but the absolute lowest I found was an in-home for $250 per week (maybe it went down to $200 for a toddler, but I can't remember). That's still $10k for one kid, and in this case it was a bit sketchy and we ended up at one that cost $300/week instead (which is still pretty reasonable in this area). Where the heck is someone finding a licensed daycare for $5000 per year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your definition of MC/UMC. If you live in s DC suburb with kids, 2 or more cars, save for retirement still have a mortgage, and need to pay for college (our instate is 43K a year total) or need to pay for daycare then yes $250-350 only funds a MC lifestyle.

No, you are wrong. Even in the high COL cities, there are plenty of MC/UMC who live on true MC incomes of $75-150K annual salary. The fallacy is that some people are adding luxury upcharges to their definition of the middle class standard. For example, you say "a DC suburb" when you mean the affluent DC suburbs. You talk about 2 cars, but you mean 2 more expensive or newer cars. You say college costs 43K total, but UVA is $16K for in-state and UMD is $10-13K for in-state tuition. UDC is $5200 for in-state. You can certainly get room, board and books for less than $27K a year. You say daycare, but I posted above how a normal middle class family living in the DC suburbs has daycare for 2 for $10K per year.

The truth is that here on DCUM, the entitled lower upper class views MoCo and N Arlington as typical MC suburbs when they aren't. Due to the population growth in this region over the last 40 years, N Arlington, McLean, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, Upper NWDC all used to be middle class bastions, but that hasn't been true for at least the last 20 years. For the last 20 years, they are now reaches for the UMC and are the homes of the upper class, perhaps the bottom of the upper class. UMC who move to these areas have to make compromises in other ways to live there or find themselves truly strapped.

There are plenty of MC and UMC who survive quite easily in PG County, Charles County, Howard County, Loudoun County and Prince William County. You could even live in parts of Montgomery County, Arlington or Fairfax County in a lower rated school zone. You pay a luxury upcharge to live close-in and in a good school zone. Middle class often don't have the luxury of living in a SFH in the best school zones. They have to compromise somewhere--renting instead of owning, getting a smaller home instead of a middle or big sized home, or a lesser rated school.

I know plenty who have two paid off cars that they bought 2-3 years old and drive them into the ground.

You think you're including middle class standards but you aren't. You are upgrading middle class standards and trying to sell the upgrades as middle class, but they aren't.

+1 to most of this although I don't think those daycare costs are the norm at all. We are in Silver Spring and I looked at a LOT of daycares, but the absolute lowest I found was an in-home for $250 per week (maybe it went down to $200 for a toddler, but I can't remember). That's still $10k for one kid, and in this case it was a bit sketchy and we ended up at one that cost $300/week instead (which is still pretty reasonable in this area). Where the heck is someone finding a licensed daycare for $5000 per year?

DP but you need to go further out. That's still pretty close in and you'll pay a premium for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A typical vacation not at a relatives house not camping costs about $1000/day. You could budget and get by with $3700 for a week. That’s going somewhere like Disney or cruise — MC vacation.

Maybe in your universe. If you fly, stay at expensive hotels and eat out 3 meals a day plus do only paid activities.

I can tell you haven’t been on vacation lately. I’m not talking about driving to the beach. But you do you.

DRIVING TO THE BEACH IS A MIDDLE CLASS VACATION.

Flying to a more exotic locale, and eating out for most lunches/dinners, is a UMC vacation.

Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous. 2 summers ago we went to Switzerland for a week- we did not have miles/ CC points for the flights, so the flights for our family of 4 were 3.5k. Then we spent about another 1.5k on lodging for the week. We ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point. We still kept total costs to under 6k. So that's under 1k a day for a European vacation to an expensive country, including airfare costs that were not offset by anything.

As a complete side-note - hiking vacation in Switzerland is on my bucket list! Where did you stay? (Stats: single mom to 1 kid, high child-care costs, HHI of 145k, can probably save for a flying vacation every other year.)

Grindelwald! It was low key and relaxing! We really didn't do much besides hang out/ hike/ picnic. Highly recommend!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A typical vacation not at a relatives house not camping costs about $1000/day. You could budget and get by with $3700 for a week. That’s going somewhere like Disney or cruise — MC vacation.

Maybe in your universe. If you fly, stay at expensive hotels and eat out 3 meals a day plus do only paid activities.

I can tell you haven’t been on vacation lately. I’m not talking about driving to the beach. But you do you.

DRIVING TO THE BEACH IS A MIDDLE CLASS VACATION.

Flying to a more exotic locale, and eating out for most lunches/dinners, is a UMC vacation.

Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous. 2 summers ago we went to Switzerland for a week- we did not have miles/ CC points for the flights, so the flights for our family of 4 were 3.5k. Then we spent about another 1.5k on lodging for the week. We ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point. We still kept total costs to under 6k. So that's under 1k a day for a European vacation to an expensive country, including airfare costs that were not offset by anything.

I don't think you have established what you were trying to.

First, you say that "Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous."

OK, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint (though it's obvious that you don't ski . . . but I digress.)

But then you say you went to Switzerland for a week, and air fare and lodging were $5000. You claim to have spend less that $1000 for the entire rest of the trip - $143 each day, for a family of four, including food, activities, transportation, etc. Assuming I believe you, and I'm not sure I do, you admit that you "ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point." Great. But it is entirely reasonable to go to Switzerland and *not* want to do it on the cheap. You were close to $1000 a day anyway - Spending an extra $150 a day gets you there. Heck, a couple of nice dinners for four get you there.

So yes, you can go to Europe for cheap. But (i) you didn't do that, and (ii) you were close to $1000/day as it is. It's not at all ridiculous.

It's actually exactly my point. Flying a family of 4 to switzerland for a week is not, in my mind (or any reasonable person's), a middle class vacation. But yet, I managed to do it on less than 1k a day, which apparently is a benchmark for a normal cost of a middle class vacation. My entire point was that 1k a day is RIDICULOUS for a MIDDLE CLASS VACATION. Obviously you can go to Switzerland and spend way more than I did and have it NOT BE A MIDDLE CLASS VACATION. The point is not "how much money do I spend on vacations?" the point is "a 1k a day vacation is not middle class spending".

[Anonymous]

Umm...wow, this is an interesting and IMHO not an accurate article.

It doesn't take into account expenses that are "needs" versus "wants".

I live in an affluent DC suburb (and only because we bought a foreclosure back in 99 and live in older house); we currently make $200K with two FT working parents (although that is not what we always earned). We sometimes have a hard time making ends meet..but that is usually of our own doing....with more "wants" than "needs". For example, Netflix and Cable subscriptions, new car (when a used car is ok), kids going on overseas school trips, travel sports team expenses, etc. -- these are all "wants" and not "needs".

The problem I see is the pressure in this and other affluent areas to "keep up with the Joneses" -- if a school class is going on an overseas trip you will "sacrifice" so that your child can go so as not to feel excluded.

I consider myself to be Middle Class in an affluent area -- I use coupons, shop at Marshalls, drive an average cost car (Mazda), stay at average cost hotels, take low cost vacations (and only every other year), rarely go out to dinner, rarely get mani/pedi, kids at public school, etc. But I can still afford the "wants" as needed.

BUT, putting away a certain amount for savings/retirement (a "need") while at the same time affording the "wants" has proven elusive. But that has been a "choice" - a choice to pick some wants over some needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A typical vacation not at a relatives house not camping costs about $1000/day. You could budget and get by with $3700 for a week. That’s going somewhere like Disney or cruise — MC vacation.

Maybe in your universe. If you fly, stay at expensive hotels and eat out 3 meals a day plus do only paid activities.

I can tell you haven’t been on vacation lately. I’m not talking about driving to the beach. But you do you.

DRIVING TO THE BEACH IS A MIDDLE CLASS VACATION.

Flying to a more exotic locale, and eating out for most lunches/dinners, is a UMC vacation.

Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous. 2 summers ago we went to Switzerland for a week- we did not have miles/ CC points for the flights, so the flights for our family of 4 were 3.5k. Then we spent about another 1.5k on lodging for the week. We ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point. We still kept total costs to under 6k. So that's under 1k a day for a European vacation to an expensive country, including airfare costs that were not offset by anything.

I don't think you have established what you were trying to.

First, you say that "Spending 1k a DAY for vacation is ridiculous."

OK, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint (though it's obvious that you don't ski . . . but I digress.)

But then you say you went to Switzerland for a week, and air fare and lodging were $5000. You claim to have spend less that $1000 for the entire rest of the trip - $143 each day, for a family of four, including food, activities, transportation, etc. Assuming I believe you, and I'm not sure I do, you admit that you "ate cheaply, and did mostly hiking/ outdoors type activities that did not have a high price point." Great. But it is entirely reasonable to go to Switzerland and *not* want to do it on the cheap. You were close to $1000 a day anyway - Spending an extra $150 a day gets you there. Heck, a couple of nice dinners for four get you there.

So yes, you can go to Europe for cheap. But (i) you didn't do that, and (ii) you were close to $1000/day as it is. It's not at all ridiculous.

It's actually exactly my point. Flying a family of 4 to switzerland for a week is not, in my mind (or any reasonable person's), a middle class vacation. But yet, I managed to do it on less than 1k a day, which apparently is a benchmark for a normal cost of a middle class vacation. My entire point was that 1k a day is RIDICULOUS for a MIDDLE CLASS VACATION. Obviously you can go to Switzerland and spend way more than I did and have it NOT BE A MIDDLE CLASS VACATION. The point is not "how much money do I spend on vacations?" the point is "a 1k a day vacation is not middle class spending".

And yet, that's not what you wrote.

[Anonymous]

A lot of these PPs are LOWER MC. It’s ok.