Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

I see nothing in this post that hasn't already been said here. It's a false equivalency to suggest that a Jew or Muslim "play-acting" the Eucharist is the same thing as a reenact of the Last Supper, which is at the very root of the Christian faith. But we have all registered your arguments and I am sorry you take such offense, especially when it is not intended.

I want to ask a serious question. What, if anything, can be done to move past the history of persecution? I'm not down-playing it by any means, but I don't understand how Christians ignoring or denying the fact that their religion has its roots in Judaism is helpful to that cause.

OK, I am going to get sucked back in at the risk of being called dense, stupid and an asshole.

I will answer your serious question with a serious answer: nothing. There is no moving past persecution for Jews, it is essential to how we view ourselves. It is how we have stayed a cohesive unit under the most hostile circumstances. As a child you are taught about the persecution of Jews as soon as you are old enough to talk. No judgement here, it is just a cultural fact.

As for Christian roots: Passover seder (which someone pointed out means "order") as we know it was not established until after the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. I don't really know how Passover was celebrated in the time of Jesus, but it could not have been with a "seder." That is post-Jesus, and therefore not part of Christian roots.

So that makes me (and other Jews) think that the Christians doing this know very little about Judaism and don't really care to find out.

Going to a Jewish seder sends the opposite message, that you care about learning about Judaism and its rituals.

Another interesting take:

http://rabbibarry.wordpress.com/2007/04/01/the-passover-and-the-last-supper/

So as a Christian, I am to feel guilty for life about past Christians' persecution of Jews? Interesting take, and a not very constructive one IMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

I see nothing in this post that hasn't already been said here. It's a false equivalency to suggest that a Jew or Muslim "play-acting" the Eucharist is the same thing as a reenact of the Last Supper, which is at the very root of the Christian faith. But we have all registered your arguments and I am sorry you take such offense, especially when it is not intended.

I want to ask a serious question. What, if anything, can be done to move past the history of persecution? I'm not down-playing it by any means, but I don't understand how Christians ignoring or denying the fact that their religion has its roots in Judaism is helpful to that cause.

OK, I am going to get sucked back in at the risk of being called dense, stupid and an asshole.

I will answer your serious question with a serious answer: nothing. There is no moving past persecution for Jews, it is essential to how we view ourselves. It is how we have stayed a cohesive unit under the most hostile circumstances. As a child you are taught about the persecution of Jews as soon as you are old enough to talk. No judgement here, it is just a cultural fact.

As for Christian roots: Passover seder (which someone pointed out means "order") as we know it was not established until after the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. I don't really know how Passover was celebrated in the time of Jesus, but it could not have been with a "seder." That is post-Jesus, and therefore not part of Christian roots.

So that makes me (and other Jews) think that the Christians doing this know very little about Judaism and don't really care to find out.

Going to a Jewish seder sends the opposite message, that you care about learning about Judaism and its rituals.

Another interesting take:

http://rabbibarry.wordpress.com/2007/04/01/the-passover-and-the-last-supper/

Thank you for sharing the rabbi's blog. It is indeed informative. I think the point that the churches should simply call their reenactment of the Last Supper something different is a point well taken. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main concern here seems to be the fact of calling something that you and many scholars feel was not, in historical context, an actual seder is the problem? And not the actual fact of doing the reenactment or of acknowledging Jesus' life as a Jew? Correct?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

I see nothing in this post that hasn't already been said here. It's a false equivalency to suggest that a Jew or Muslim "play-acting" the Eucharist is the same thing as a reenact of the Last Supper, which is at the very root of the Christian faith. But we have all registered your arguments and I am sorry you take such offense, especially when it is not intended.

I want to ask a serious question. What, if anything, can be done to move past the history of persecution? I'm not down-playing it by any means, but I don't understand how Christians ignoring or denying the fact that their religion has its roots in Judaism is helpful to that cause.

OK, I am going to get sucked back in at the risk of being called dense, stupid and an asshole.

I will answer your serious question with a serious answer: nothing. There is no moving past persecution for Jews, it is essential to how we view ourselves. It is how we have stayed a cohesive unit under the most hostile circumstances. As a child you are taught about the persecution of Jews as soon as you are old enough to talk. No judgement here, it is just a cultural fact.

As for Christian roots: Passover seder (which someone pointed out means "order") as we know it was not established until after the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. I don't really know how Passover was celebrated in the time of Jesus, but it could not have been with a "seder." That is post-Jesus, and therefore not part of Christian roots.

So that makes me (and other Jews) think that the Christians doing this know very little about Judaism and don't really care to find out.

Going to a Jewish seder sends the opposite message, that you care about learning about Judaism and its rituals.

Another interesting take:

http://rabbibarry.wordpress.com/2007/04/01/the-passover-and-the-last-supper/

So as a Christian, I am to feel guilty for life about past Christians' persecution of Jews? Interesting take, and a not very constructive one IMO.

No, you don't have to feel guilty. You just have to realize that Jews feel sensitive about their history of persecution. African Americans feel sensitive about slavery, I presume. It is similar. It is an ingrained cultural and religious memory, central to Jewish identity, as another PP pointed out. Therefore, even though there may not be any intent to offend or persecute on the part of modern Christians, Jews may perceive their actions as disturbing, even without intent to disturb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

I see nothing in this post that hasn't already been said here. It's a false equivalency to suggest that a Jew or Muslim "play-acting" the Eucharist is the same thing as a reenact of the Last Supper, which is at the very root of the Christian faith. But we have all registered your arguments and I am sorry you take such offense, especially when it is not intended.

I want to ask a serious question. What, if anything, can be done to move past the history of persecution? I'm not down-playing it by any means, but I don't understand how Christians ignoring or denying the fact that their religion has its roots in Judaism is helpful to that cause.

OK, I am going to get sucked back in at the risk of being called dense, stupid and an asshole.

I will answer your serious question with a serious answer: nothing. There is no moving past persecution for Jews, it is essential to how we view ourselves. It is how we have stayed a cohesive unit under the most hostile circumstances. As a child you are taught about the persecution of Jews as soon as you are old enough to talk. No judgement here, it is just a cultural fact.

As for Christian roots: Passover seder (which someone pointed out means "order") as we know it was not established until after the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. I don't really know how Passover was celebrated in the time of Jesus, but it could not have been with a "seder." That is post-Jesus, and therefore not part of Christian roots.

So that makes me (and other Jews) think that the Christians doing this know very little about Judaism and don't really care to find out.

Going to a Jewish seder sends the opposite message, that you care about learning about Judaism and its rituals.

Another interesting take:

http://rabbibarry.wordpress.com/2007/04/01/the-passover-and-the-last-supper/

Thank you for sharing the rabbi's blog. It is indeed informative. I think the point that the churches should simply call their reenactment of the Last Supper something different is a point well taken. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main concern here seems to be the fact of calling something that you and many scholars feel was not, in historical context, an actual seder is the problem? And not the actual fact of doing the reenactment or of acknowledging Jesus' life as a Jew? Correct?

That would be take on it (as a Jew). I think reenacting the Last Supper is lovely. However, calling it a seder -- which historically it could not have been, as others have pointed out -- appears to co-opt centuries of Jewish tradition. It feels insulting. I know it isn't meant to be, but it feels that way. It is even more bizarre to me because I read some of the links others posted of the Christian "seders," and they bore absolutely no resemblance to the seders I grew up with, except for the name and the concept of doing things in a set order. The actual actions, the foods, the symbolism, all were completely different -- all recognizably Christian, not Jewish. It is just very strange for me as a Jew to see that and to hear it called a seder. It would be like someone taking a socialist political system and renaming it a democracy. The name is not accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but it just bugs me. Why does a Baptist Church need to have a Passover Seder as part of their "walk with Jesus?" Yes, I know the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. But experiencing Passover as a way to e a Christian seems icky to me. Can someone talk me down?

Why complain about this? Isn't it good to promote understanding of various religious traditions? Would you prefer a large sign saying "Jews repent, and accept Jesus as the Savior"?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but it just bugs me. Why does a Baptist Church need to have a Passover Seder as part of their "walk with Jesus?" Yes, I know the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. But experiencing Passover as a way to e a Christian seems icky to me. Can someone talk me down?

Why complain about this? Isn't it good to promote understanding of various religious traditions? Would you prefer a large sign saying "Jews repent, and accept Jesus as the Savior"?!

That would be more honest, and easier to deal with. And when I confronted it, I wouldn't have a bunch of people telling me I'm "oversensitive."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

[Anonymous]

unless you have experienced the hypoglycemic stupor of my aunt Minna's 4.5 hour Seder, to paraphrase Stevie, you haven't done nothin'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but it just bugs me. Why does a Baptist Church need to have a Passover Seder as part of their "walk with Jesus?" Yes, I know the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. But experiencing Passover as a way to e a Christian seems icky to me. Can someone talk me down?

Why complain about this? Isn't it good to promote understanding of various religious traditions? Would you prefer a large sign saying "Jews repent, and accept Jesus as the Savior"?!

That would be more honest, and easier to deal with. And when I confronted it, I wouldn't have a bunch of people telling me I'm "oversensitive."

But see, it wouldn't be more honest, because there is NO intent to convert people behind holding these events. This has been explained several times. Whether you agree with calling it a seder or not, there is no intent to hoodwink unsuspecting Jews into a surprise conversion attempt. There just isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

Huh? what about this person in ANY WAY suggests that she is Orthodox??? There is a poster on here who keeps claiming various Jewish posters must be Orthodox...which is totally weird. I hate to break it to you, but very few Orthodox Jewish posters would be spending time on DCUM during PASSOVER, idiot!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

Huh? what about this person in ANY WAY suggests that she is Orthodox??? There is a poster on here who keeps claiming various Jewish posters must be Orthodox...which is totally weird. I hate to break it to you, but very few Orthodox Jewish posters would be spending time on DCUM during PASSOVER, idiot!

OK. The PP said she is 38 years old. Passover comes ONCE A YEAR. Orthodox Jews observe first and second night of Passover. It would be mathematically impossible for her to have attended more than one Seder a year unless she went to 2 in one day. Crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

Huh? what about this person in ANY WAY suggests that she is Orthodox??? There is a poster on here who keeps claiming various Jewish posters must be Orthodox...which is totally weird. I hate to break it to you, but very few Orthodox Jewish posters would be spending time on DCUM during PASSOVER, idiot!

OK. The PP said she is 38 years old. Passover comes ONCE A YEAR. Orthodox Jews observe first and second night of Passover. It would be mathematically impossible for her to have attended more than one Seder a year unless she went to 2 in one day. Crazy.

Many, many Jewish people celebrate the first and second night of Passover -- Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist. And those that simply get invited to more than one Seder on the first night of Passover may attend more than one Seder. I don't know where you get your information but assuming someone is Orthodox simply because they went to first and second night Seders is Ree-dic-u-lous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

Huh? what about this person in ANY WAY suggests that she is Orthodox??? There is a poster on here who keeps claiming various Jewish posters must be Orthodox...which is totally weird. I hate to break it to you, but very few Orthodox Jewish posters would be spending time on DCUM during PASSOVER, idiot!

Wow. Idiot huh? There is no prohibition against using technology during Passover. It isn't shabbos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

Huh? what about this person in ANY WAY suggests that she is Orthodox??? There is a poster on here who keeps claiming various Jewish posters must be Orthodox...which is totally weird. I hate to break it to you, but very few Orthodox Jewish posters would be spending time on DCUM during PASSOVER, idiot!

Orthodox Jews celebrate eight seders (Eight nights of Passover).


OK. The PP said she is 38 years old. Passover comes ONCE A YEAR. Orthodox Jews observe first and second night of Passover. It would be mathematically impossible for her to have attended more than one Seder a year unless she went to 2 in one day. Crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.

If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.

So, you're orthodox? and you do first and second night? in which case, why'd you miss 6? and who counts things that way? Who says: i've had 38 Succoths, beat that, goyim! I'm just saying...but good for you, keepin' it kosher er, real and all.

Huh? what about this person in ANY WAY suggests that she is Orthodox??? There is a poster on here who keeps claiming various Jewish posters must be Orthodox...which is totally weird. I hate to break it to you, but very few Orthodox Jewish posters would be spending time on DCUM during PASSOVER, idiot!

Wow. Idiot huh? There is no prohibition against using technology during Passover. It isn't shabbos.

It has nothing to do with technology. Do you have any idea how time consuming Passover is? You have to not only prepare for eight seders (Orthodox Jews celebrate all eight nights of passover, which means eight ritual meals -- because that's what Passover is, a ritual meal) -- but you have to clean your entire house of any yeast-bearing products, any bread crumbs. This isn't just sitting down for a meal. This is an incredibly time consuming ritual.