Frontline doc about Rhee and cheating

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The analogy of doctors and dying cancer patients basically says that it's an act of God, and that there's nothing the doctor can possibly do to change the outcome.

Same with farmers and drought. There's nothing they can do to affect the outcome.

So basically, that analogy means there is absolutely nothing possible that DCPS can ever do to improve the lot of its students. It's the Will of God that students fail to master the material.

That is what BOTH of those analogies tell me.

You are truly un-be-frickin-lievable.

And to continue that line of reasoning: If there is absolutely nothing possible that can be done, why bother with teachers? Why not just drive a pickup to the nearest Home Depot parking lot and pick up a bunch of day laborers instead?

I'll accept that IMPACT is a poor tool for measuring teacher effectiveness, that good teachers can score low and bad teachers can score high. But I also believe that teacher effectiveness exists, that there are better teachers and worse teachers, and that the quality of teaching has a dramatic impact on outcomes for students.

Sadly, so often when teachers rail against IMPACT, they don't complain about a flawed measuring tool, they complain about the very notion of trying to measure teacher effectiveness (and presumably, by measuring it encourage it). And incredibly, many don't seem to understand the difference, or why it matters.

I can respect someone who says that they have no problem with evaluating effectiveness, but that IMPACT doesn't do that. I have zero respect for someone -- in any profession -- who says "what I do can't be measured."

[Anonymous]

I am also a former DCPS teacher. I started teaching at Anacostia High School the same year that Rhee became chancellor. I was fired in the middle of my third year. I saw everything that the other former DCPS teacher described on this thread: “Teachers who sleep on the job, leave early every day, don't teach ONE. SINGLE. BIT. of the curriculum.” The thing is I was not one of those teachers. I was a teacher who should not have been fired. You may or may not believe me, but as I read these message-boards and watch the Frontline report, I am mostly just sad, because I know that I was making real progress with my students, and I was prevented from continuing. Of course teachers need to be evaluated, but Michelle Rhee failed in developing an effective system. It wasn’t just me. I personally know many outstanding educators who were forced out during Rhee’s tenure. And I know of many, many not so good teachers who remain.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your wonderful interpretations. Have you thought of becoming a theologian, or a fundamentalist preacher? You could practice in front of a mirror and put all sorts of words into people's mouths. It's a great way to blow off steam.

I suppose if no teachers were needed, there'd be no administrators either and no transformational leaders. They'd all have to go out and get respectable jobs.

I have one word for you:

cupcakes

[Anonymous]

Nobody put any words in anyone's mouth. Just admit it, in your zeal, you started hammering out stupid, inappropriate analogies before engaging your BRAIN.

Dying cancer patients? NO.
Dying crops in a drought? NO.

These are students, waiting to be taught, and it's up to the school and the teachers to do their job and teach, rather than to shirk responsibility and blame everyone and everything around them.

[Anonymous]

Morons like you two are the reason political debates always degenerate and end up in deadlock. Move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am also a former DCPS teacher. I started teaching at Anacostia High School the same year that Rhee became chancellor. I was fired in the middle of my third year. I saw everything that the other former DCPS teacher described on this thread: “Teachers who sleep on the job, leave early every day, don't teach ONE. SINGLE. BIT. of the curriculum.” The thing is I was not one of those teachers. I was a teacher who should not have been fired. You may or may not believe me, but as I read these message-boards and watch the Frontline report, I am mostly just sad, because I know that I was making real progress with my students, and I was prevented from continuing. Of course teachers need to be evaluated, but Michelle Rhee failed in developing an effective system. It wasn’t just me. I personally know many outstanding educators who were forced out during Rhee’s tenure. And I know of many, many not so good teachers who remain.

I'm the teacher you quoted and I believe you 100%. Even before Rhee we were evaluated on how many kids got A's. Not once did anyone check to see what (if anything) I was teaching. No one ever checked to see if I gave them a single test or assignment. No one ever looked at my grade books- only the at the ending of the advisory period. And if I did't have enough A's I was asked why and told my job was on the line if it continued. None of the other work mattered. It didn't matter that most of my kids were trying to do chemistry while reading on a 3rd grade level. When most (not some, but MOST) of the kids have some combination of learning disability, emotional disability or severe social/family struggles any teacher needs support. I had some kids who were identified as special needs, but not once did I ever see an IEP, ever attend an IEP meeting or learn of any of their accommodations. And forget about adaptive or assistive technology, co-teachers, special ed support or anything like that. It only mattered that I any kid in my class an A. That sort of mentality laid the ground work for dishonesty in some of the teachers. Why wouldn't it? Year after year if you job is on the line if your kids don't produce a certain grade or number the stress eventually gets to you. "No one's looking. The kids will feel like they succeeded. I will only get praise for having high grades." It honestly took stamina and bullheadedness NOT to cheat the students. Teachers work really hard, but we are one piece in a big, complicated puzzle. By the time a kid gets to Anacostia or Coolidge the potential is there that no amount of remediation or excellent teaching will make an impact.

[Anonymous]

The reason political debates end in deadlock is because some people are incapable of ever manning up and acknowledging when they've misstated something or made a mistake. They just double down on wrong and paint themselves even farther into the corner. And with someone is so fundamentally intellectually dishonest , there is no possibility of ever arriving at logical conclusions, rationality or reasoning. Sad part is, they are really only lying to themselves - the rest of the world knows better and sees right through it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am also a former DCPS teacher. I started teaching at Anacostia High School the same year that Rhee became chancellor. I was fired in the middle of my third year. I saw everything that the other former DCPS teacher described on this thread: “Teachers who sleep on the job, leave early every day, don't teach ONE. SINGLE. BIT. of the curriculum.” The thing is I was not one of those teachers. I was a teacher who should not have been fired. You may or may not believe me, but as I read these message-boards and watch the Frontline report, I am mostly just sad, because I know that I was making real progress with my students, and I was prevented from continuing. Of course teachers need to be evaluated, but Michelle Rhee failed in developing an effective system. It wasn’t just me. I personally know many outstanding educators who were forced out during Rhee’s tenure. And I know of many, many not so good teachers who remain.

Thank you for speaking up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason political debates end in deadlock is because some people are incapable of ever manning up and acknowledging when they've misstated something or made a mistake. They just double down on wrong and paint themselves even farther into the corner. And with someone is so fundamentally intellectually dishonest , there is no possibility of ever arriving at logical conclusions, rationality or reasoning. Sad part is, they are really only lying to themselves - the rest of the world knows better and sees right through it.

Agreed - though sometimes on an anonymous forum like this, it's interesting to speculate about motives and to see just how much people will dig in and put words in the other person's mouth.

[Anonymous]

There is another alternative, which is the agree to disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is another alternative, which is the agree to disagree.

Yes. that works when both sides just want to make their point and not crush the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am also a former DCPS teacher. I started teaching at Anacostia High School the same year that Rhee became chancellor. I was fired in the middle of my third year. I saw everything that the other former DCPS teacher described on this thread: “Teachers who sleep on the job, leave early every day, don't teach ONE. SINGLE. BIT. of the curriculum.” The thing is I was not one of those teachers. I was a teacher who should not have been fired. You may or may not believe me, but as I read these message-boards and watch the Frontline report, I am mostly just sad, because I know that I was making real progress with my students, and I was prevented from continuing. Of course teachers need to be evaluated, but Michelle Rhee failed in developing an effective system. It wasn’t just me. I personally know many outstanding educators who were forced out during Rhee’s tenure. And I know of many, many not so good teachers who remain.

I'm the teacher you quoted and I believe you 100%. Even before Rhee we were evaluated on how many kids got A's. Not once did anyone check to see what (if anything) I was teaching. No one ever checked to see if I gave them a single test or assignment. No one ever looked at my grade books- only the at the ending of the advisory period. And if I did't have enough A's I was asked why and told my job was on the line if it continued. None of the other work mattered. It didn't matter that most of my kids were trying to do chemistry while reading on a 3rd grade level. When most (not some, but MOST) of the kids have some combination of learning disability, emotional disability or severe social/family struggles any teacher needs support. I had some kids who were identified as special needs, but not once did I ever see an IEP, ever attend an IEP meeting or learn of any of their accommodations. And forget about adaptive or assistive technology, co-teachers, special ed support or anything like that. It only mattered that I any kid in my class an A. That sort of mentality laid the ground work for dishonesty in some of the teachers. Why wouldn't it? Year after year if you job is on the line if your kids don't produce a certain grade or number the stress eventually gets to you. "No one's looking. The kids will feel like they succeeded. I will only get praise for having high grades." It honestly took stamina and bullheadedness NOT to cheat the students. Teachers work really hard, but we are one piece in a big, complicated puzzle. By the time a kid gets to Anacostia or Coolidge the potential is there that no amount of remediation or excellent teaching will make an impact.

Thanks to both of you for your service. I'm so sorry that you and your students had to endure this. I'm one of the critics of Rhee on this thread but I imagine we can all agree that things were dismal for many students and teachers before she arrived.

Your stories about teaching make me even more concerned for the young woman I tutor who is a junior at a charter school. From what she tells me, it sounds like her school does a better job than Anacostia but I continue to worry about her low level of reading ability. They keep taking her and the other students on college visits, creating expectations that she, too, will go to college. When she applies herself, she does get decent grades so it's conceivable she could get into college but I know she can't read well enough to survive college. She's a good kid who, except for some typical adolescent stuff, is pretty responsible. Chances are good she will graduate from high school but I worry a lot about what will happen to her when she graduates. I'm not confident that anyone is really preparing her for life after high school. Your stories about being pressured to hand out good grades are not helping my anxiety!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am also a former DCPS teacher. I started teaching at Anacostia High School the same year that Rhee became chancellor. I was fired in the middle of my third year. I saw everything that the other former DCPS teacher described on this thread: “Teachers who sleep on the job, leave early every day, don't teach ONE. SINGLE. BIT. of the curriculum.” The thing is I was not one of those teachers. I was a teacher who should not have been fired. You may or may not believe me, but as I read these message-boards and watch the Frontline report, I am mostly just sad, because I know that I was making real progress with my students, and I was prevented from continuing. Of course teachers need to be evaluated, but Michelle Rhee failed in developing an effective system. It wasn’t just me. I personally know many outstanding educators who were forced out during Rhee’s tenure. And I know of many, many not so good teachers who remain.

I'm the teacher you quoted and I believe you 100%. Even before Rhee we were evaluated on how many kids got A's. Not once did anyone check to see what (if anything) I was teaching. No one ever checked to see if I gave them a single test or assignment. No one ever looked at my grade books- only the at the ending of the advisory period. And if I did't have enough A's I was asked why and told my job was on the line if it continued. None of the other work mattered. It didn't matter that most of my kids were trying to do chemistry while reading on a 3rd grade level. When most (not some, but MOST) of the kids have some combination of learning disability, emotional disability or severe social/family struggles any teacher needs support. I had some kids who were identified as special needs, but not once did I ever see an IEP, ever attend an IEP meeting or learn of any of their accommodations. And forget about adaptive or assistive technology, co-teachers, special ed support or anything like that. It only mattered that I any kid in my class an A. That sort of mentality laid the ground work for dishonesty in some of the teachers. Why wouldn't it? Year after year if you job is on the line if your kids don't produce a certain grade or number the stress eventually gets to you. "No one's looking. The kids will feel like they succeeded. I will only get praise for having high grades." It honestly took stamina and bullheadedness NOT to cheat the students. Teachers work really hard, but we are one piece in a big, complicated puzzle. By the time a kid gets to Anacostia or Coolidge the potential is there that no amount of remediation or excellent teaching will make an impact.

Thanks to both of you for your service. I'm so sorry that you and your students had to endure this. I'm one of the critics of Rhee on this thread but I imagine we can all agree that things were dismal for many students and teachers before she arrived.

Your stories about teaching make me even more concerned for the young woman I tutor who is a junior at a charter school. From what she tells me, it sounds like her school does a better job than Anacostia but I continue to worry about her low level of reading ability. They keep taking her and the other students on college visits, creating expectations that she, too, will go to college. When she applies herself, she does get decent grades so it's conceivable she could get into college but I know she can't read well enough to survive college. She's a good kid who, except for some typical adolescent stuff, is pretty responsible. Chances are good she will graduate from high school but I worry a lot about what will happen to her when she graduates. I'm not confident that anyone is really preparing her for life after high school. Your stories about being pressured to hand out good grades are not helping my anxiety!

Paul Tough in his most recent book, How Children Succeed has a chapter on a program in Chicago that helps kids that are scoring in the bottom 20% of the SAT that are trying to go to college. It maybe worth sharing that chapter because the girl he profiles is definately not an obvious candidate for college, but does develop some strategies that help her succeed intially, she had not finish college yet, when he finished the book, so you don't know if it is enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am also a former DCPS teacher. I started teaching at Anacostia High School the same year that Rhee became chancellor. I was fired in the middle of my third year. I saw everything that the other former DCPS teacher described on this thread: “Teachers who sleep on the job, leave early every day, don't teach ONE. SINGLE. BIT. of the curriculum.” The thing is I was not one of those teachers. I was a teacher who should not have been fired. You may or may not believe me, but as I read these message-boards and watch the Frontline report, I am mostly just sad, because I know that I was making real progress with my students, and I was prevented from continuing. Of course teachers need to be evaluated, but Michelle Rhee failed in developing an effective system. It wasn’t just me. I personally know many outstanding educators who were forced out during Rhee’s tenure. And I know of many, many not so good teachers who remain.

Why do you think you were fired?

Was it an arbitrary decision made by Rhee? Did your principal take advantage of the opportunity to get rid of you for some reason? Were you an effective teacher among many, many highly effective teachers? I'm baffled by the decision-making that went into getting rid of someone like you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The analogy of doctors and dying cancer patients basically says that it's an act of God, and that there's nothing the doctor can possibly do to change the outcome.

Same with farmers and drought. There's nothing they can do to affect the outcome.

So basically, that analogy means there is absolutely nothing possible that DCPS can ever do to improve the lot of its students. It's the Will of God that students fail to master the material.

That is what BOTH of those analogies tell me.

You are truly un-be-frickin-lievable.

And to continue that line of reasoning: If there is absolutely nothing possible that can be done, why bother with teachers? Why not just drive a pickup to the nearest Home Depot parking lot and pick up a bunch of day laborers instead?

I'll accept that IMPACT is a poor tool for measuring teacher effectiveness, that good teachers can score low and bad teachers can score high. But I also believe that teacher effectiveness exists, that there are better teachers and worse teachers, and that the quality of teaching has a dramatic impact on outcomes for students.

Sadly, so often when teachers rail against IMPACT, they don't complain about a flawed measuring tool, they complain about the very notion of trying to measure teacher effectiveness (and presumably, by measuring it encourage it). And incredibly, many don't seem to understand the difference, or why it matters.

I can respect someone who says that they have no problem with evaluating effectiveness, but that IMPACT doesn't do that. I have zero respect for someone -- in any profession -- who says "what I do can't be measured."

Winner.