Frontline doc about Rhee and cheating

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ Well, actually, I think the more appropriate analogy would be if doctors were rated and evaluated mostly on the outcome of patients, regardless of (1) what condition they arrived in or (2) what circumstances in their life that are outside the doctor's control may be worsening their situation, instead of rating them by whether the doctor followed the standard of care and provided adequate treatment.

That's what the system is doing when most of a teacher's rating is based solely on the outcome of one test administered one time a year, rather than on how they are actually performing in the classroom, covering the curriculum, serving students' different levels and needs, etc.

Think of those hospital ratings that are based on mortality rates, where they have to make the caveat that their usefulness is limited because trauma centers and high-level hospitals that receive the worst patients have higher mortality rates. And it's not because they provide worse care.

When I taught at the college level, I had teacher evaluations from students, along with student grades and observations from the department head. Clearly, IMPACT is moving towards that direction but instead of student evals they use test scores.

How much weight was given to student evals, was there a specific percentage? Were they strictly numeric or did your appraiser take into account the subjectivity of the source, wide disparities, etc.? How much weight was given to students' grades? More than 50%? Were you expected to have a specific percentage of your students achieve the highest grades? It doesn't sound to me like your evaluations were necessarily very similar to IMPACT based DCPS evaluations.

[Anonymous]

I'm a teacher who wants to be evaluated but it needs to be done fairly. I'm totally fine with getting rid of tenure - as long as multiple measures are used for my performance evaluation.
In my good public school we are told that the principal or asst. principal will come into our rooms to evaluate us TWICE during the entire school year. One visit will be scheduled in advance and one will be a surprise. Last year, when I was new to the school, my principal came in once for 15 minutes and once for 30 minutes. THAT WAS IT for the whole year. (Yes, if she had heard whispers that I was doing a poor job than I would have been watched slightly more.) I got a good eval but I felt very lucky. My friend was just observed for the last few minutes of dismissal at the very end of the day.

When I've had office jobs my boss has had much more knowledge of how I was actually performing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked that Rhee took on the teachers' union. I don't understand why public school teachers have tenure. Granted I only taught at the college level (untenured) but tenure at the college level was established to protect controversial research. Also most colleges and universities are doing away with tenure. Why should public school teachers NOT be fired. I totally think DCPS needs a MASSIVE shake up. There are some terrible teachers in it. Instead of cheating on standardize tests, why don't they actually teach their students.

80% of the 5th grade could not read at a proficient level, but passed the DC-CAS the year before. We had students who were expelled from the charter schools show up days before the CAS. Some of them were expelled for truancy. HR was a mess. The 5th graders had no recess. It was all really sad. All this, with being told, almost daily, that we could lose our jobs at any time. Thus, we could not just stop and go back to try to teach 1st grade reading to our students who needed the instruction so badly.

This is appalling. No one ever did take the time to go back and teach these kids who were being cheated out of learning to read! Disgusting!

Another PP wanted to extend naps into Pre-K?! Put your child to bed at a decent hour so they are ready to learn! Talk about structuring schools for the lowest common denominator. Is that what everyone wants?

Clearly DCPS is a mess. It was a mess before Rhee. It is a mess under Henderson. Until someone addresses the BASIC problems with lack of quality teaching and administration, it will be a mess. There are plenty of other schools who manage to teach and educate low (or no) income students. Using the kids' SES as an excuse is not addressing the other issues, which the former teacher posted regarding teachers leaving during the day or sleeping in class. Rhee was neither good nor bad for DCPS, it is still very much status quo.

You have a problem with PreK students (i.e., 4 year olds) taking naps in the middle of a 7 hour school day? Who ARE you? Simon Legree or some Dickensian villian?

My PreKer started reading in PreS, absolutely loves school, is bright and advanced, and needs a nap. Yes, even with a full night's sleep, she needs a nap. Sleep in the middle of the day is developmentally appropriate for 4 year olds. It's a school, not a sweatshop.

I am a mom of a 6 and 4 year old. Both of my kids dropped their naps before 3. I would be fighting naps in PreK because if my kids were forced to nap, they would be up until midnight or would wake up at 3 in the morning. I understand it is school. I am a huge believer in play-based preschool but for my own sanity would fight PreK naps! I don't know many PreK-ers who nap. This might just be because my kids have play dates with the ones who do not....?

I have 3 children, the youngest in PreK. Two out of the three are great nappers. Not lazy, not under-privileged by any stretch. In fact, they very much enjoy extra-curricular activities, perhaps because they get the right amount of sleep, including in the middle of the day.

In the "olden days" (when I was in K) and in most of the very highly-regarded local suburban schools, even K was/is a half day. It was largely consumed by finger-painting and other mildly-organized activities. I got my National Merit scholarship and Ivy League diploma anyway. (The NM is completely superfluous and useless at some schools, it's merely an entry ticket.) Maybe if my PreK (private back then, and still only 3 - 4 hours) had been more aggressive and ambitious (so that I didn't waste all that time on naps) I could have gotten an endowed scholarship. We'll never know for sure, but I'm taking my chances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked that Rhee took on the teachers' union. I don't understand why public school teachers have tenure. Granted I only taught at the college level (untenured) but tenure at the college level was established to protect controversial research. Also most colleges and universities are doing away with tenure. Why should public school teachers NOT be fired. I totally think DCPS needs a MASSIVE shake up. There are some terrible teachers in it. Instead of cheating on standardize tests, why don't they actually teach their students.

80% of the 5th grade could not read at a proficient level, but passed the DC-CAS the year before. We had students who were expelled from the charter schools show up days before the CAS. Some of them were expelled for truancy. HR was a mess. The 5th graders had no recess. It was all really sad. All this, with being told, almost daily, that we could lose our jobs at any time. Thus, we could not just stop and go back to try to teach 1st grade reading to our students who needed the instruction so badly.

This is appalling. No one ever did take the time to go back and teach these kids who were being cheated out of learning to read! Disgusting!

Another PP wanted to extend naps into Pre-K?! Put your child to bed at a decent hour so they are ready to learn! Talk about structuring schools for the lowest common denominator. Is that what everyone wants?

Clearly DCPS is a mess. It was a mess before Rhee. It is a mess under Henderson. Until someone addresses the BASIC problems with lack of quality teaching and administration, it will be a mess. There are plenty of other schools who manage to teach and educate low (or no) income students. Using the kids' SES as an excuse is not addressing the other issues, which the former teacher posted regarding teachers leaving during the day or sleeping in class. Rhee was neither good nor bad for DCPS, it is still very much status quo.

You have a problem with PreK students (i.e., 4 year olds) taking naps in the middle of a 7 hour school day? Who ARE you? Simon Legree or some Dickensian villian?

My PreKer started reading in PreS, absolutely loves school, is bright and advanced, and needs a nap. Yes, even with a full night's sleep, she needs a nap. Sleep in the middle of the day is developmentally appropriate for 4 year olds. It's a school, not a sweatshop.

I am a mom of a 6 and 4 year old. Both of my kids dropped their naps before 3. I would be fighting naps in PreK because if my kids were forced to nap, they would be up until midnight or would wake up at 3 in the morning. I understand it is school. I am a huge believer in play-based preschool but for my own sanity would fight PreK naps! I don't know many PreK-ers who nap. This might just be because my kids have play dates with the ones who do not....?

I have 3 children, the youngest in PreK. Two out of the three are great nappers. Not lazy, not under-privileged by any stretch. In fact, they very much enjoy extra-curricular activities, perhaps because they get the right amount of sleep, including in the middle of the day.

In the "olden days" (when I was in K) and in most of the very highly-regarded local suburban schools, even K was/is a half day. It was largely consumed by finger-painting and other mildly-organized activities. I got my National Merit scholarship and Ivy League diploma anyway. (The NM is completely superfluous and useless at some schools, it's merely an entry ticket.) Maybe if my PreK (private back then, and still only 3 - 4 hours) had been more aggressive and ambitious (so that I didn't waste all that time on naps) I could have gotten an endowed scholarship. We'll never know for sure, but I'm taking my chances.

Maybe I need a nap because I have no clue what you are rambling on about. Great, you went to an Ivy League school. Are you trying to tell me my kids are stupid because they don't need a nap? I don't get it. Please tell me what an endowed scholarship is, I have only heard of endowed chairs for college faculty.

[Anonymous]

I'm the poster who made the doctor and farmer analogies.

Thanks to those who expanded upon my comments.

To my detractor - Rest easy - I am not a teacher. never said I was. Seems like you're very quick to blame teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the poster who made the doctor and farmer analogies.

Thanks to those who expanded upon my comments.

To my detractor - Rest easy - I am not a teacher. never said I was. Seems like you're very quick to blame teachers.

NP here, I don't care who or what you are, but your analogies were utter and complete garbage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked that Rhee took on the teachers' union. I don't understand why public school teachers have tenure. Granted I only taught at the college level (untenured) but tenure at the college level was established to protect controversial research. Also most colleges and universities are doing away with tenure. Why should public school teachers NOT be fired. I totally think DCPS needs a MASSIVE shake up. There are some terrible teachers in it. Instead of cheating on standardize tests, why don't they actually teach their students.

80% of the 5th grade could not read at a proficient level, but passed the DC-CAS the year before. We had students who were expelled from the charter schools show up days before the CAS. Some of them were expelled for truancy. HR was a mess. The 5th graders had no recess. It was all really sad. All this, with being told, almost daily, that we could lose our jobs at any time. Thus, we could not just stop and go back to try to teach 1st grade reading to our students who needed the instruction so badly.

This is appalling. No one ever did take the time to go back and teach these kids who were being cheated out of learning to read! Disgusting!

Another PP wanted to extend naps into Pre-K?! Put your child to bed at a decent hour so they are ready to learn! Talk about structuring schools for the lowest common denominator. Is that what everyone wants?

Clearly DCPS is a mess. It was a mess before Rhee. It is a mess under Henderson. Until someone addresses the BASIC problems with lack of quality teaching and administration, it will be a mess. There are plenty of other schools who manage to teach and educate low (or no) income students. Using the kids' SES as an excuse is not addressing the other issues, which the former teacher posted regarding teachers leaving during the day or sleeping in class. Rhee was neither good nor bad for DCPS, it is still very much status quo.

You have a problem with PreK students (i.e., 4 year olds) taking naps in the middle of a 7 hour school day? Who ARE you? Simon Legree or some Dickensian villian?

My PreKer started reading in PreS, absolutely loves school, is bright and advanced, and needs a nap. Yes, even with a full night's sleep, she needs a nap. Sleep in the middle of the day is developmentally appropriate for 4 year olds. It's a school, not a sweatshop.

I am a mom of a 6 and 4 year old. Both of my kids dropped their naps before 3. I would be fighting naps in PreK because if my kids were forced to nap, they would be up until midnight or would wake up at 3 in the morning. I understand it is school. I am a huge believer in play-based preschool but for my own sanity would fight PreK naps! I don't know many PreK-ers who nap. This might just be because my kids have play dates with the ones who do not....?

I have 3 children, the youngest in PreK. Two out of the three are great nappers. Not lazy, not under-privileged by any stretch. In fact, they very much enjoy extra-curricular activities, perhaps because they get the right amount of sleep, including in the middle of the day.

In the "olden days" (when I was in K) and in most of the very highly-regarded local suburban schools, even K was/is a half day. It was largely consumed by finger-painting and other mildly-organized activities. I got my National Merit scholarship and Ivy League diploma anyway. (The NM is completely superfluous and useless at some schools, it's merely an entry ticket.) Maybe if my PreK (private back then, and still only 3 - 4 hours) had been more aggressive and ambitious (so that I didn't waste all that time on naps) I could have gotten an endowed scholarship. We'll never know for sure, but I'm taking my chances.

Maybe I need a nap because I have no clue what you are rambling on about. Great, you went to an Ivy League school. Are you trying to tell me my kids are stupid because they don't need a nap? I don't get it. Please tell me what an endowed scholarship is, I have only heard of endowed chairs for college faculty.

The "rambling on" is in response to a PP who objects to PreK students taking naps.

As for an endowed scholarship, it is one that comes from the university's endowment fund, often merit-based (as opposed to a third party such as National Merit, career-based opportunities, athletic, corporate-sponsored, ethnic, gender-based, etc.) Sometimes Dr. Google is your friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment

[Anonymous]

Aren't you relieved, though, that I'm not a teacher, screwing up impressionable children with my garbage-like analogies?

Or perhaps you're disappointed that you can't complain about the utter and complete garbage analogies some horrendous DC teacher uses?

All that outrage over analogies wasted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

With that analogy you are basically saying the teacher (doctor in your analogy) has zero responsibility and all failures are 100% the fault of the students (the dying cancer patients).

The more correct analogy would be one where a doctor sees healthy patients with minor but treatable conditions, fails to treat them, and then they die. Death was never inevitable, just as failure to learn never was.

Students are not dying cancer patients, sorry. Their lack of learning is not their fault. You are there to EDUCATE them, not to ignore them or give them a sub-par effort, and leave them to just go off and wither.

That whole analogy was wholly unconscionable and distasteful, and you probably have no business whatsoever in the education business, if that's what your attitude is.

1. I never said that students' lack of learning is their fault (although, I'll point out - nor is it usually a patient's fault if they have cancer). 2. You might argue that someone with my attitude has no business working in education, but I would rather have someone in education who knows that helping students overcome the setbacks many of them have is no walk in the park than someone who thinks that all it takes is higher expectations. Many students do not have "minor" conditions - they are not just coming into 5th grade confused about how to subtract decimals -- many students are coming in many years behind grade level, still trying to become fluent in English, and dealing with the side effects of extreme poverty. These students deserve an education system that makes a better plan than offering a bunch of carrots and sticks. Get past the analogy and recognize the situation for what it is instead of telling random people who should and shouldn't be in education, and if you really think you know all the answers I suggest you get into the classroom ASAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you relieved, though, that I'm not a teacher, screwing up impressionable children with my garbage-like analogies?

Or perhaps you're disappointed that you can't complain about the utter and complete garbage analogies some horrendous DC teacher uses?

All that outrage over analogies wasted.

Why are you so eager to absolve system of any responsibility and pin all the blame on the students instead? What's your dog in the fight, if you're not part of the system?

[Anonymous]

Rhee gets credit for getting rid of central office folks who did nothing. Rhee also gets credit for moving out many teachers who had no business in a classroom. DCPS "old timers" - folks with kids in DCPS before Rhee all seem to have a horror story or two about a truly terrible teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rhee gets credit for getting rid of central office folks who did nothing. Rhee also gets credit for moving out many teachers who had no business in a classroom. DCPS "old timers" - folks with kids in DCPS before Rhee all seem to have a horror story or two about a truly terrible teacher.

So why does DCPS continue to fire more than a hundred teachers each year and replace them with TFAs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you relieved, though, that I'm not a teacher, screwing up impressionable children with my garbage-like analogies?

Or perhaps you're disappointed that you can't complain about the utter and complete garbage analogies some horrendous DC teacher uses?

All that outrage over analogies wasted.

Why are you so eager to absolve system of any responsibility and pin all the blame on the students instead? What's your dog in the fight, if you're not part of the system?

Your reading comprehension needs some serious work. You'd score terribly on the DC-CAS.

Seriously, this isn't what the PP was saying with her analogies at all, and if you honestly think that what she's said adds up to blaming students, you're not capable of having a conversation with logical human beings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you relieved, though, that I'm not a teacher, screwing up impressionable children with my garbage-like analogies?

Or perhaps you're disappointed that you can't complain about the utter and complete garbage analogies some horrendous DC teacher uses?

All that outrage over analogies wasted.

Why are you so eager to absolve system of any responsibility and pin all the blame on the students instead? What's your dog in the fight, if you're not part of the system?

"Absolve" the system of responsibility? "Pin" the blame on students? Your imagination is working overtime!

I'm beginning to wonder if your "dog in the fight" is that you're in DCPS management and getting worried that this cheating thing could cost you your job and your self-image as a savior of education.

[Anonymous]

The analogy of doctors and dying cancer patients basically says that it's an act of God, and that there's nothing the doctor can possibly do to change the outcome.

Same with farmers and drought. There's nothing they can do to affect the outcome.

So basically, that analogy means there is absolutely nothing possible that DCPS can ever do to improve the lot of its students. It's the Will of God that students fail to master the material.

That is what BOTH of those analogies tell me.

You are truly un-be-frickin-lievable.