Predicting spousal support

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

I could have written this post + he is constantly out of town for his work. And yet I work full time. I feel very stressed and exhausted all the time. I look at my calendar and its all full with work meetings, doctor's appointments, school activities. I even have to put stuff like *go grocery shopping* on my calendar because ill just forget and there isn't anything to eat. I cook a lot too as I just cannot eat junk food or take outs.
The work situation is also not great. I do not have a career, just a job to pay bills. He makes 3 times than me. I have some health issues too. This capitalistic society is not good for anyone, either SAHP or working parents. I am constantly in survival mode.

With all due respect, some of us working parents with spouses who do their share aren't struggling. I get it that it's easier to blame the system than to look inside how you got where you are, but it's not necessarily the truth. Why did you have multiple kids with someone who wasn't willing to do anything with them?

I wanted to have kids.
In real life I keep this all to myself. I do not complain because I made my choice and I have to live with this choice. I am still grateful for I have as most of the country is not that lucky. I am myself an immigrant and my perception of this country was all well to do people. Which is not the case. Many many Americans live in or below poverty. The choice to stay home or not for them might be non existent as there are basically no jobs in sone locations.

[Anonymous]

I got alimony for life in Virginia. I was married for 24 years and was married to a doctor. I was a SAHM and then worked retail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I got alimony for life in Virginia. I was married for 24 years and was married to a doctor. I was a SAHM and then worked retail.

How long ago was this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

So he cooked and cleaned and paid bills while you were dating? And when the first one was born and he didn't do anything with them you decided to have more kids?

I actually stopped at one. Yes, he cooked and cleaned and was paying bills when we were dating. I have a graduate degree. But I am an immigrant, had no work permit (a spousal visa did not allow work) and no family to help out. He literally checked out after the kid was born.

[Anonymous]

NP here: I am in the process of filling the painful "long form" for the lawyer to estimate spousal support, if any, due to me. We are in MD, married 27 years, and income gap is 3X. Anyone receive spousal support on this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a similar situation as a SAHM. Are there any lawyers (Fairfax County) that are especially good at representing women in this kind of situation?

OP here. I wish we could talk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This also leads to a bigger question that I actually was debating with my DH earlier today. I don't think a DH leaves his family and wife who wants the marriage to remain intact unless he has something or someone waiting in the wings. This is where the fidelity issue comes in or the fact that something was going on that the family wasn't aware of which could help with leverage in any settlement.

The only non-infidelity story I’ve hear is my one.

Mine left after he decided he wanted to retire at 55 without telling me. Then I got cc’ed on meeting notes from a conversation he had with our joint finanical advisor who said our retirement savings were off track and he would have to do x, y and z to sustain us through retirement if he wanted to be done at 55.

Instead, exDH apparently spent a week doing the math, realized that he could retire at 55 if he cut me loose after a major raise he was anticipating, and filed a few weeks before that raise would hit. Not sure how other jurisdictions do it but in mine, income after filing date is the earners’ and no longer marital.

Highly effective retirement savings strategy, btw.

I call BS. Were you somehow a major drain on finances that divorcing and retiring would be cheaper than just retiring? Or did he intend to divorce all along, and just picked the optimal moment for him to do so? I am a primary breadwinner, and I don’t see how divorcing and giving up part of our joint assets could make my retirement more affordable.

No BS, I wish. It may have been his intention for a while but I’ll never know. Our assets were relatively compared to his salary potential. Otherwise you’re right that it wouldn’t make sense. He walked out at an inflection point.

We had also paused contributions at a higher rate and contributed the minimum for 18 months to move liquidity into buying a house he really wanted, with the plan to increase contributions after the purchase.

I believe that when he looked at the reality of investing for two versus investing for one and saw an excuse to sell the house (which he thought he wanted but was overwhelmed by) without exposing that he couldn’t handle it, and then had his promotion track confirmed, it dawned on him that he had a face-saving way out of the entire situation.

PP. it’s still a crazy story. I don’t think you are lying, but he most likely was contemplating a divorce for a while. I mean, even ignoring all the logistical and emotional benefits of staying married, from the financial standpoint, it’s definitely better to stay married unless a spouse somehow triggers costs.

You’re replying to me. I’ve turned it over every which way and I have a few thoughts. First, one of my dear friends who DH also knew received a surprise divorce announcement from her DH 6 weeks before mine filed. This was quite shocking as they were sort of the ideal couple in our circle. DH also has many out-of-state friends from college who divorced with kids with a certain degree of casual callousness (very Belle Burden) in recent years. The men went off to live bachelor lives with high spending and travel, and big career gains, or at least that’s the part my DH saw and maybe envied.

My theories:

1) my friend’s divorce kind of put him over the top in terms of him allowing himself permission to consider something that may have been seeded by his friends long before.

2) our DCs had just switched private schools and didn’t follow normal feeder patterns because of our move. If he’d been planning it for a while, I think DH realized he could finally do so in between school years for minimal social censure.

3) his career hit a unique inflection point at this exact same time and he was put on an executive track that changed his compensation mix. With everything else lined up, securing sole ownership of significant deferred compensation probably gave him a now-or-never mentality. The split of shared total assets I’ll get? Less than what he’ll make in one year starting now.

With hindsight I can point out signs here and there that he was sometimes self-centered or prioritized his life over mine, but nothing that predicted that he’d bail this far in and leave me with comparatively little.

It’s been interesting to quietly share my story with people and hear similar stories in return. My experience is more common than I’d imagined but also met with such incredulity and even shaming that most of us keep it quiet.

OP here - my story has so many similarities to this. I’m sorry. I understand.

[Anonymous]

I'm thinking of you all that are going through this time. I hope you have good girlfriends you can turn to for dinners out to vent and drink wine. That's what will get you through this. You may be surprised that many of your friends will support you and be there for you. There are always outliers, but you probably have more support than you realize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

So he cooked and cleaned and paid bills while you were dating? And when the first one was born and he didn't do anything with them you decided to have more kids?

Everyone cooks and cleans and pays bills when dating.

And if you have already mommy-tracked yourself or decided to be home outside of school hours to take care of one kid, why not have more?

Um, because more kids are more work? If you wanted more kids with a useless husband then go ahead and do it but stop complaining about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

So he cooked and cleaned and paid bills while you were dating? And when the first one was born and he didn't do anything with them you decided to have more kids?

I actually stopped at one. Yes, he cooked and cleaned and was paying bills when we were dating. I have a graduate degree. But I am an immigrant, had no work permit (a spousal visa did not allow work) and no family to help out. He literally checked out after the kid was born.

So (a) you're not the PP because she said kidS and (b) you couldn't work here anyway, so how is your comment relevant?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This also leads to a bigger question that I actually was debating with my DH earlier today. I don't think a DH leaves his family and wife who wants the marriage to remain intact unless he has something or someone waiting in the wings. This is where the fidelity issue comes in or the fact that something was going on that the family wasn't aware of which could help with leverage in any settlement.

The only non-infidelity story I’ve hear is my one.

Mine left after he decided he wanted to retire at 55 without telling me. Then I got cc’ed on meeting notes from a conversation he had with our joint finanical advisor who said our retirement savings were off track and he would have to do x, y and z to sustain us through retirement if he wanted to be done at 55.

Instead, exDH apparently spent a week doing the math, realized that he could retire at 55 if he cut me loose after a major raise he was anticipating, and filed a few weeks before that raise would hit. Not sure how other jurisdictions do it but in mine, income after filing date is the earners’ and no longer marital.

Highly effective retirement savings strategy, btw.

I call BS. Were you somehow a major drain on finances that divorcing and retiring would be cheaper than just retiring? Or did he intend to divorce all along, and just picked the optimal moment for him to do so? I am a primary breadwinner, and I don’t see how divorcing and giving up part of our joint assets could make my retirement more affordable.

No BS, I wish. It may have been his intention for a while but I’ll never know. Our assets were relatively compared to his salary potential. Otherwise you’re right that it wouldn’t make sense. He walked out at an inflection point.

We had also paused contributions at a higher rate and contributed the minimum for 18 months to move liquidity into buying a house he really wanted, with the plan to increase contributions after the purchase.

I believe that when he looked at the reality of investing for two versus investing for one and saw an excuse to sell the house (which he thought he wanted but was overwhelmed by) without exposing that he couldn’t handle it, and then had his promotion track confirmed, it dawned on him that he had a face-saving way out of the entire situation.

PP. it’s still a crazy story. I don’t think you are lying, but he most likely was contemplating a divorce for a while. I mean, even ignoring all the logistical and emotional benefits of staying married, from the financial standpoint, it’s definitely better to stay married unless a spouse somehow triggers costs.

You’re replying to me. I’ve turned it over every which way and I have a few thoughts. First, one of my dear friends who DH also knew received a surprise divorce announcement from her DH 6 weeks before mine filed. This was quite shocking as they were sort of the ideal couple in our circle. DH also has many out-of-state friends from college who divorced with kids with a certain degree of casual callousness (very Belle Burden) in recent years. The men went off to live bachelor lives with high spending and travel, and big career gains, or at least that’s the part my DH saw and maybe envied.

My theories:

1) my friend’s divorce kind of put him over the top in terms of him allowing himself permission to consider something that may have been seeded by his friends long before.

2) our DCs had just switched private schools and didn’t follow normal feeder patterns because of our move. If he’d been planning it for a while, I think DH realized he could finally do so in between school years for minimal social censure.

3) his career hit a unique inflection point at this exact same time and he was put on an executive track that changed his compensation mix. With everything else lined up, securing sole ownership of significant deferred compensation probably gave him a now-or-never mentality. The split of shared total assets I’ll get? Less than what he’ll make in one year starting now.

With hindsight I can point out signs here and there that he was sometimes self-centered or prioritized his life over mine, but nothing that predicted that he’d bail this far in and leave me with comparatively little.

It’s been interesting to quietly share my story with people and hear similar stories in return. My experience is more common than I’d imagined but also met with such incredulity and even shaming that most of us keep it quiet.

Wow, what an arsehole to leave the mother of his children in such a conniving manner. I hope he ends up with a gold digger who’ll bleed him dry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

I could have written this post + he is constantly out of town for his work. And yet I work full time. I feel very stressed and exhausted all the time. I look at my calendar and its all full with work meetings, doctor's appointments, school activities. I even have to put stuff like *go grocery shopping* on my calendar because ill just forget and there isn't anything to eat. I cook a lot too as I just cannot eat junk food or take outs.
The work situation is also not great. I do not have a career, just a job to pay bills. He makes 3 times than me. I have some health issues too. This capitalistic society is not good for anyone, either SAHP or working parents. I am constantly in survival mode.

With all due respect, some of us working parents with spouses who do their share aren't struggling. I get it that it's easier to blame the system than to look inside how you got where you are, but it's not necessarily the truth. Why did you have multiple kids with someone who wasn't willing to do anything with them?

I wanted to have kids.
In real life I keep this all to myself. I do not complain because I made my choice and I have to live with this choice. I am still grateful for I have as most of the country is not that lucky. I am myself an immigrant and my perception of this country was all well to do people. Which is not the case. Many many Americans live in or below poverty. The choice to stay home or not for them might be non existent as there are basically no jobs in sone locations.

If there are no jobs, you move. The issue is really the cost of child care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

I could have written this post + he is constantly out of town for his work. And yet I work full time. I feel very stressed and exhausted all the time. I look at my calendar and its all full with work meetings, doctor's appointments, school activities. I even have to put stuff like *go grocery shopping* on my calendar because ill just forget and there isn't anything to eat. I cook a lot too as I just cannot eat junk food or take outs.
The work situation is also not great. I do not have a career, just a job to pay bills. He makes 3 times than me. I have some health issues too. This capitalistic society is not good for anyone, either SAHP or working parents. I am constantly in survival mode.

You make him do those things. You can get groceries delivered and hire help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

Why is it always assumed that the “sacrificing” spouse furthered the other spouse’s career? I worked in government, my career trajectory was pretty much set. In my specific situation, my ex was more of a detriment to my career. Not only did I work full time, but I also did most of the cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, etc. Yet I would still hear the same argument about what my spouse “gave up,” when in reality they could have gone back to work at any time during the marriage and chose not to.

Because they do. My DH has never taken kids to doctors, any other appointments, parent-teacher conferences, any school functions, sport practices, nothing at all. Doesn't know teachers, coaches, doctors. Has never met any. Doesn't cook nor clean, has no idea about house management, repairs, taxes, mortgage. One of our kids got accepted to gifted program and I had to drive them to-and-from as this wasn't covered by a school bus. When kids were little, he regularly stayed in his office until 11 pm so that he didn't have to do anything. I wish I didn't get married and had a career instead as I did before getting married! No, I didn't know nor did we agree that everything will to be done by me.

So he cooked and cleaned and paid bills while you were dating? And when the first one was born and he didn't do anything with them you decided to have more kids?

Everyone cooks and cleans and pays bills when dating.

And if you have already mommy-tracked yourself or decided to be home outside of school hours to take care of one kid, why not have more?

Um, because more kids are more work? If you wanted more kids with a useless husband then go ahead and do it but stop complaining about it.

Pp here. I’m not scared of work. I just cannot physically be at work and be home at the same time. If DH is more or less gone or at least not predictably around, then I have to be home outside of daycare hours or the hours a decent nanny is willing to work. Whether I can’t work because I have to be home with one kid or five kids is irrelevant. And if your husband isn’t predictably home, it’s nice to have a few more faces talking and joking around the dinner table.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Married 20 years and got alimony for 10 years, until youngest was 16. The decision we made TOGETHER for me to do majority of parenting was honored. Also got over 50% of his retirement and full ownership of home.
Aim high.

Are you working?

She worked for 20 years raising kids which he didn’t want to do. Now she’s retired.
Is she supposed to work till 90 yo while her ex retires ? That’s not how it works

Most working adults would kill to have to only work for 20 years.

Stop acting like it’s brain surgery. As Bill Burr says, if it were the hardest job in the world, it wouldn’t be such a common choice.