Anti aging and pedophilic patriarchy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the anti-hair people also against eyebrow grooming and facial hair removal?

You’re so dense. You’re being asked to consider why. Stop being defensive and look at the bigger picture. Look at what we are doing to our children.

Simple question: are you suggesting we should keep our unibrows, mustaches, and chin hairs?

DP but I think people are just suggesting we start asking WHY we do some of this stuff, who it is for, and who benefits.

Today I had an appointment for my ortho, where I had to do some practical physical tests, so I wore workout clothes. It's warm today, so I wanted short sleeves, but I discovered I only had long sleeve or tank workout tops that were clean. The thing about a tank is that when I do these tests at my ortho, I have to reach above my head and stretch my arms out, and people can see my underarms. Now, I shave my underarms. But I just feel sort of uncomfortable about how they look. I have dark hair and pale skin, so even with shaving, there's a little shadow there. If I were at the gym I'd wouldn't worry about it, but I was thinking about being in an office with people looking at my body and watching me do these tests, and I felt uncomfortable about it. I wound up wearing the tank but then wearing a hoody over it, so that I could keep the hoody on for the tests, even though honestly I felt hot in the hoody.

Maybe you never worry about stuff like that, but reread this thread. Hair on women is "masculine", "untidy", "gross." Hairy and beefy thrown around as insults (along with lesbian). Women should be "clean" and "tidy" which means hairless except on their heads.

You can say I'm neurotic for feeling bad about how my *shaved* armpits look due to the fact that I'm a human being who has hair follicles in my armpit, but I look at this conversation and am like "yup, that's exactly why I felt weird about it and didn't want people to see it."

It's worth talking about. I'm not going to stop shaving my armpits (obviously! that would only make me feel worse and more self conscious) but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the way these expectations around how women's bodies are "supposed" to look (which is so different from how our bodies look naturally, especially as we age) can be a prison for us.

Why can't it just be a personal choice? Men choose whether to shave their faces, just as I choose to get my eyebrows, mustache, and chin hairs threaded. It's how I like to groom myself, much like my husband prefers to shave his face every morning.

? the PP is saying it's a personal choice. This thread is just discussing WHY the standard of beauty is set such that women feel thy need to wax their pubes off (which sounds incredibly painful).

Men groom, too, though.

But men are not told they are unclean or gross if they choose not to fully remove all their body and facial hair. A man may choose to shave or not, but it's an aesthetic choice and people are accepting either way. Men with beards are not given dirty looks or called gross. A woman who doesn't shave her armpits would get both.

Men go to the pool with hairy legs and arms and backs and chests, and no one says anything. They may even have hair on their stomachs or lower back that is likely an extension of pubic hair, and people would not really care because they are men and they are allowed to have body hair. A woman at the pool with visible leg hair or back hair, or some visible pubic hair, would be made fun of and avoided.

It's not the same. A lot of grooming is not a true choice for women unless they are willing to accept a limited social role or cover themselves up. Many women only shave and wax out of fear of judgement or to be socially acceptable, and not because it's a genuine choice they are making for personal preference only.

I've run into a few young women in their twenties who don't shave their body hair. They seem to intentionally wear revealing clothing to let everyone see where they stand. Fine.

Yep. The obvious “look at me and my radical choice!” is so pathetic. Who cares.

Judging by this thread (and every other body hair thread in DCUM history), a lot of people care a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh please. My botox just kicked in and I can finally look at myself without cringing. It's for me. Same with bikini wax. All for me. Stop acting like we don't have agency over what we actually like on our own bodies.

I don't like crop tops like the younger girls wear so I don't wear them. I don't like long hair barrel curls so I don't do those.

It’s all for you because you learned to hate the way you look naturally. Where did you learn it?

This is the dumbest post in a while. I get a Brazilian because I don't like that sweat and pee get trapped in the hair and produce the smell. I was single for 5 years and still got Brazilians. It's not even about the look.

This must be from a man.

Nope. All woman baby. The fact that you’re denying that sweat gets trapped by hair is just ludicrous. I shave my armpits for the same reason as do you. But somethow you know this to be true when it comes to armpits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Are more women finally making the connection between the beauty industries emphasis on anti-aging products and the pedophilic nature of patriarchy? has it finally hit you that your obsession with not looking "old" caters to the predatory male gaze?"

Agree or disagree?

I have only skimmed the responses so I apologize if I missed something. The level of discussion on womens issues on a womens forum continues to be disappointing.

The entire concept of “beauty” is rooted around two primary principles 1) health and 2) fertility.

The emphasis on anti-aging measures is to simulate women appearing in their most fertile years. I forget the age range but it is VERY young by our modern standards definitely partially underage although NOT pre-pubescent.

But yes, I do agree with your point that beauty/anti-aging efforts are an attempt to appeal to male desire. There is a health element to it (staying fit and disease free) which I believe can be separated from the male gaze.

Rant over.

PS shaving privates is a modern offshoot of catering to the male gaze by emulating p0rn.

PPS the purpose of make up is either to improve appearance of health / fertility / youth OR simulate the appearance of biological sexual arousal.

[Anonymous]

Thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Are more women finally making the connection between the beauty industries emphasis on anti-aging products and the pedophilic nature of patriarchy? has it finally hit you that your obsession with not looking "old" caters to the predatory male gaze?"

Agree or disagree?

I have only skimmed the responses so I apologize if I missed something. The level of discussion on womens issues on a womens forum continues to be disappointing.

The entire concept of “beauty” is rooted around two primary principles 1) health and 2) fertility.

The emphasis on anti-aging measures is to simulate women appearing in their most fertile years. I forget the age range but it is VERY young by our modern standards definitely partially underage although NOT pre-pubescent.

But yes, I do agree with your point that beauty/anti-aging efforts are an attempt to appeal to male desire. There is a health element to it (staying fit and disease free) which I believe can be separated from the male gaze.

Rant over.

PS shaving privates is a modern offshoot of catering to the male gaze by emulating p0rn.

PPS the purpose of make up is either to improve appearance of health / fertility / youth OR simulate the appearance of biological sexual arousal.

Agree with this and hard concur on the comment about the low level of discourse here.

I will expand and say that it's absolutely possible for women to CHOOSE to groom or decorate themselves in a way consistent with the male gaze and still be empowered. Wearing makeup, waxing, etc. does not mean you're a victim or that your choices are not your own.

However, refusing to acknowledge or understand where these ideals come from, or the ways that many women do NOT choose these things but have them imposed, is both ignorant and childish. You can own your own choices while also acknowledging that some of what you do has patriarchal origins. See also: courting and marriage rituals, most of which stem from traditions in which girls and women were chattel goods sold to their husbands by their fathers. Does that mean if you get married, you're not a feminist? No, of course not. But it would be worthwhile to learn about that history, especially in light of a conversation about, for instance, spousal abuse.

That's the point here. No one cares if you wear mascara or wax your bikini line. It's not a commentary on your personal choice. But right now there is a conversation happening about the abuse and exploitation of girls and very young women by a bunch of very powerful people. Pretending like those people's exploitation of children, immigrant women, service workers, etc. is totally unrelated from certain beauty and grooming standards because you don't want to think about it is cowardly. You should think about it.

The defensiveness on this thread is disappointing because there's no reason for it. Let me show you:

I do periodically wax and trim my bikini area. I'm in my 40s and divorced and not having sex right now, so I'm not doing it for any man. And yes, 100%, I do it because it feels better for me, it makes it easier when I want to wear a bathing suit, etc. All valid and practical concerns. But it also makes me feel sexier, and I notice that too. Again, even though I'm not having sex and don't really feel like having sex right now. And I do think that has something to do with my own exposure to grooming standards for women.

I was in my 20s in the 00s. I remember influences like Sex & the City (where they portrayed a very high maintenance version of female sexuality -- waxing, very high heels, tan, thin, blonde highlights, hair straightening, etc.). I also remember the rise of the Brazilian as a think American women got, influenced in part by the embrace of Brazilian supermodels like Gisele, Adriana Limia, and Alessandra Ambrosio, all of whom featured heavily in Victoria's Secret campaigns and Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues of that era, wearing the sorts of swimsuits and underwear that absolutely required complete removal of everything. And these were the images I remember from when I was like 22 and really dating in a meaningful way for the first time.

I also think of the conversations I had with friends at that time. About grooming, including waxing, and about relationships. I remember hearing friends call pubic hair "gross" and "offensive", make jokes about women who didn't wax or at least shave, and obsess over skimpy bikinis. I remember going to salons with friends to all get our nails done and upper lips waxed. I also remember talking about sex and who did what, and I specifically remember a general attitude among my friends and I that you *had* to do certain things in order to be appealing to men. Not a specific man but just men in general. Like if you didn't groom in a specific way, and didn't do certain sex acts, then you would be alone. Not just alone, but like, rejected. Also it wasn't enough to do this stuff, getting everything waxed and doing whatever men wanted in bed. You had to love it. You were supposed to be enthusiastic. Because that absolved everybody involved of thinking that any of this wasn't feminist, because it was the 21st century, of course we were all feminist! We were just hairless, tan, sexy feminists wearing 4 inch heels and talking about how much we loooooved giving head. Because we were empowered.

Does any of this mean I shouldn't get a wax if I want one? Nope, it's my body, I do what I want. Do I think about this stuff, especially when I read about things in the Epstein files that were happening around the same time that my friends and I were embracing our feminism by subscribing to what I now think of as an extremely degrading, disempowered, sad existence that was almost entirely about pleasing men and had almost NOTHING to do with our own personal agency or pleasure. YES. You can do both.

[Anonymous]

^tl;dr Divorcee turns out to be an even more boring writer than chatgpt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^tl;dr Divorcee turns out to be an even more boring writer than chatgpt.

Truly, f**k off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the anti-hair people also against eyebrow grooming and facial hair removal?

You’re so dense. You’re being asked to consider why. Stop being defensive and look at the bigger picture. Look at what we are doing to our children.

Simple question: are you suggesting we should keep our unibrows, mustaches, and chin hairs?

DP but I think people are just suggesting we start asking WHY we do some of this stuff, who it is for, and who benefits.

Today I had an appointment for my ortho, where I had to do some practical physical tests, so I wore workout clothes. It's warm today, so I wanted short sleeves, but I discovered I only had long sleeve or tank workout tops that were clean. The thing about a tank is that when I do these tests at my ortho, I have to reach above my head and stretch my arms out, and people can see my underarms. Now, I shave my underarms. But I just feel sort of uncomfortable about how they look. I have dark hair and pale skin, so even with shaving, there's a little shadow there. If I were at the gym I'd wouldn't worry about it, but I was thinking about being in an office with people looking at my body and watching me do these tests, and I felt uncomfortable about it. I wound up wearing the tank but then wearing a hoody over it, so that I could keep the hoody on for the tests, even though honestly I felt hot in the hoody.

Maybe you never worry about stuff like that, but reread this thread. Hair on women is "masculine", "untidy", "gross." Hairy and beefy thrown around as insults (along with lesbian). Women should be "clean" and "tidy" which means hairless except on their heads.

You can say I'm neurotic for feeling bad about how my *shaved* armpits look due to the fact that I'm a human being who has hair follicles in my armpit, but I look at this conversation and am like "yup, that's exactly why I felt weird about it and didn't want people to see it."

It's worth talking about. I'm not going to stop shaving my armpits (obviously! that would only make me feel worse and more self conscious) but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the way these expectations around how women's bodies are "supposed" to look (which is so different from how our bodies look naturally, especially as we age) can be a prison for us.

Why can't it just be a personal choice? Men choose whether to shave their faces, just as I choose to get my eyebrows, mustache, and chin hairs threaded. It's how I like to groom myself, much like my husband prefers to shave his face every morning.

? the PP is saying it's a personal choice. This thread is just discussing WHY the standard of beauty is set such that women feel thy need to wax their pubes off (which sounds incredibly painful).

Men groom, too, though.

A man shaving everything off down there is weird, too. I really think it's the porn effect.

+1
I would be seriously grossed out if my husband did that. Or any man.

You’re a child.

Sure, whatever you say! A man grooming like that is just sad and creepy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^tl;dr Divorcee turns out to be an even more boring writer than chatgpt.

Seriously. This all boils down to one thing: women can do whatever they want to their own bodies for their own reasons. It's extremely *anti*feminist to suggest that women removing unwanted hair is done only because of men. Obviously, many of us prefer it that way and would even if men didn't exist. Trying to make this into some kind of academic treatise is ridiculous. Anyone who cares this deeply about what OTHER people choose to do with their own bodies is the real problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Are more women finally making the connection between the beauty industries emphasis on anti-aging products and the pedophilic nature of patriarchy? has it finally hit you that your obsession with not looking "old" caters to the predatory male gaze?"

Agree or disagree?

I have only skimmed the responses so I apologize if I missed something. The level of discussion on womens issues on a womens forum continues to be disappointing.

The entire concept of “beauty” is rooted around two primary principles 1) health and 2) fertility.

The emphasis on anti-aging measures is to simulate women appearing in their most fertile years. I forget the age range but it is VERY young by our modern standards definitely partially underage although NOT pre-pubescent.

But yes, I do agree with your point that beauty/anti-aging efforts are an attempt to appeal to male desire. There is a health element to it (staying fit and disease free) which I believe can be separated from the male gaze.

Rant over.

PS shaving privates is a modern offshoot of catering to the male gaze by emulating p0rn.

PPS the purpose of make up is either to improve appearance of health / fertility / youth OR simulate the appearance of biological sexual arousal.

Agree with this and hard concur on the comment about the low level of discourse here.

I will expand and say that it's absolutely possible for women to CHOOSE to groom or decorate themselves in a way consistent with the male gaze and still be empowered. Wearing makeup, waxing, etc. does not mean you're a victim or that your choices are not your own.

However, refusing to acknowledge or understand where these ideals come from, or the ways that many women do NOT choose these things but have them imposed, is both ignorant and childish. You can own your own choices while also acknowledging that some of what you do has patriarchal origins. See also: courting and marriage rituals, most of which stem from traditions in which girls and women were chattel goods sold to their husbands by their fathers. Does that mean if you get married, you're not a feminist? No, of course not. But it would be worthwhile to learn about that history, especially in light of a conversation about, for instance, spousal abuse.

That's the point here. No one cares if you wear mascara or wax your bikini line. It's not a commentary on your personal choice. But right now there is a conversation happening about the abuse and exploitation of girls and very young women by a bunch of very powerful people. Pretending like those people's exploitation of children, immigrant women, service workers, etc. is totally unrelated from certain beauty and grooming standards because you don't want to think about it is cowardly. You should think about it.

The defensiveness on this thread is disappointing because there's no reason for it. Let me show you:

I do periodically wax and trim my bikini area. I'm in my 40s and divorced and not having sex right now, so I'm not doing it for any man. And yes, 100%, I do it because it feels better for me, it makes it easier when I want to wear a bathing suit, etc. All valid and practical concerns. But it also makes me feel sexier, and I notice that too. Again, even though I'm not having sex and don't really feel like having sex right now. And I do think that has something to do with my own exposure to grooming standards for women.

I was in my 20s in the 00s. I remember influences like Sex & the City (where they portrayed a very high maintenance version of female sexuality -- waxing, very high heels, tan, thin, blonde highlights, hair straightening, etc.). I also remember the rise of the Brazilian as a think American women got, influenced in part by the embrace of Brazilian supermodels like Gisele, Adriana Limia, and Alessandra Ambrosio, all of whom featured heavily in Victoria's Secret campaigns and Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues of that era, wearing the sorts of swimsuits and underwear that absolutely required complete removal of everything. And these were the images I remember from when I was like 22 and really dating in a meaningful way for the first time.

I also think of the conversations I had with friends at that time. About grooming, including waxing, and about relationships. I remember hearing friends call pubic hair "gross" and "offensive", make jokes about women who didn't wax or at least shave, and obsess over skimpy bikinis. I remember going to salons with friends to all get our nails done and upper lips waxed. I also remember talking about sex and who did what, and I specifically remember a general attitude among my friends and I that you *had* to do certain things in order to be appealing to men. Not a specific man but just men in general. Like if you didn't groom in a specific way, and didn't do certain sex acts, then you would be alone. Not just alone, but like, rejected. Also it wasn't enough to do this stuff, getting everything waxed and doing whatever men wanted in bed. You had to love it. You were supposed to be enthusiastic. Because that absolved everybody involved of thinking that any of this wasn't feminist, because it was the 21st century, of course we were all feminist! We were just hairless, tan, sexy feminists wearing 4 inch heels and talking about how much we loooooved giving head. Because we were empowered.

Does any of this mean I shouldn't get a wax if I want one? Nope, it's my body, I do what I want. Do I think about this stuff, especially when I read about things in the Epstein files that were happening around the same time that my friends and I were embracing our feminism by subscribing to what I now think of as an extremely degrading, disempowered, sad existence that was almost entirely pleasing men and had almost NOTHING to do with our own personal agency or pleasure. YES. You can do both.

Thank you

[Anonymous]

"What Epstein shows us is that we all live in a paedophilac culture"

Carole Cadwalladr on her sub stack How to Survive the Broliarchy. An investigative journalist who writes about tech.

It's a thoughtful response to what's being revealed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the anti-hair people also against eyebrow grooming and facial hair removal?

You’re so dense. You’re being asked to consider why. Stop being defensive and look at the bigger picture. Look at what we are doing to our children.

Simple question: are you suggesting we should keep our unibrows, mustaches, and chin hairs?

DP but I think people are just suggesting we start asking WHY we do some of this stuff, who it is for, and who benefits.

Today I had an appointment for my ortho, where I had to do some practical physical tests, so I wore workout clothes. It's warm today, so I wanted short sleeves, but I discovered I only had long sleeve or tank workout tops that were clean. The thing about a tank is that when I do these tests at my ortho, I have to reach above my head and stretch my arms out, and people can see my underarms. Now, I shave my underarms. But I just feel sort of uncomfortable about how they look. I have dark hair and pale skin, so even with shaving, there's a little shadow there. If I were at the gym I'd wouldn't worry about it, but I was thinking about being in an office with people looking at my body and watching me do these tests, and I felt uncomfortable about it. I wound up wearing the tank but then wearing a hoody over it, so that I could keep the hoody on for the tests, even though honestly I felt hot in the hoody.

Maybe you never worry about stuff like that, but reread this thread. Hair on women is "masculine", "untidy", "gross." Hairy and beefy thrown around as insults (along with lesbian). Women should be "clean" and "tidy" which means hairless except on their heads.

You can say I'm neurotic for feeling bad about how my *shaved* armpits look due to the fact that I'm a human being who has hair follicles in my armpit, but I look at this conversation and am like "yup, that's exactly why I felt weird about it and didn't want people to see it."

It's worth talking about. I'm not going to stop shaving my armpits (obviously! that would only make me feel worse and more self conscious) but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the way these expectations around how women's bodies are "supposed" to look (which is so different from how our bodies look naturally, especially as we age) can be a prison for us.

Why can't it just be a personal choice? Men choose whether to shave their faces, just as I choose to get my eyebrows, mustache, and chin hairs threaded. It's how I like to groom myself, much like my husband prefers to shave his face every morning.

? the PP is saying it's a personal choice. This thread is just discussing WHY the standard of beauty is set such that women feel thy need to wax their pubes off (which sounds incredibly painful).

Men groom, too, though.

A man shaving everything off down there is weird, too. I really think it's the porn effect.

+1
I would be seriously grossed out if my husband did that. Or any man.

You're obviously 40+.

And?

Younger men groom. I get that they would gross you out, but that's the world now. It also cuts against the argument that grooming is patriarchal, because for the younger generation, most men also choose to groom. Most young women expect it.

I’m not one of the posters claiming any grooming is patriarchal. Quite the opposite, in fact. Women can choose what to do with their own bodies.

However, I do disagree with your assertion that “younger men groom.” I’m sure plenty do, but definitely not the majority.

Should we take a poll of 20-40-year-old single men to see what percentage groom?

[Anonymous]

I wax myself. Do not like to be hairy just as physical sensation. Plus body hair traps sweat, dirt and bacteria--even with regular showering. Gross. Even my husband keeps himself trimmed.

[Anonymous]

I wax my bikini area and shave everywhere else. It’s for myself, as I like the feeling. I’ve also gotten a tummy tuck and a breast lift+augmentation years after marriage because my breasts were never nicely shaped and I was always conscious of that. Again, because I wanted to. My DH didn’t care one way or the other. At 52 I haven’t done anything to my face yet, but I might look into a bleph sometime soon. Again, for myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^tl;dr Divorcee turns out to be an even more boring writer than chatgpt.

Seriously. This all boils down to one thing: women can do whatever they want to their own bodies for their own reasons. It's extremely *anti*feminist to suggest that women removing unwanted hair is done only because of men. Obviously, many of us prefer it that way and would even if men didn't exist. Trying to make this into some kind of academic treatise is ridiculous. Anyone who cares this deeply about what OTHER people choose to do with their own bodies is the real problem.

NP.

You know there are entire academic disciplines that study this kind of thing, correct?

I find this universal policing of conversations you specifically don’t want to be having very strange. Seems like it would easier to remove yourself and let the people interested engage.