What country would you rather raise kid in?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would raise them in the USA first because, having lived abroad in many different countries, I think we have by far the best quality of life.
However, outside the US, my top personal choices would be:
Italy, France, Malaysia, England

LOL where exactly did you live? We’re not even CLOSE to having the best quality of life…

Actually we do. This is such nonsense. You spiked Americans have absolutely no idea how good you have it. If the UK was a state it would be #51 in every single metric.

WTF is a “spiked” American?

And you’ve obviously never lived in a Nordic country. Most places in the US are an absolute embarrassment in comparison. We’re still better than Canada, though, and I’ll die on that hill.

Don’t even get me started on Nordic countries.

Incredibly high COL with low salaries
Terrible weather
Lack of innovation and diversity of jobs
Rules/laws about everything
High taxes
*Insane mortgage debt* for income levels
Inflexible labor market due to laws
Everyone making roughly the same amount of money. A cleaner making not much less than an engineer.

Forced gender equality that in reality has just made life more difficult for women and easier for men. For example, women being pushed to take long parental leaves that are low paid with unavailable childcare. Women expected to have completely separate finances even if married and completely provide for themselves. Hence the parental leave since men are now not supporting women after they have children

Group think where everyone is the same and it you’re not, you’re a problem, which is why there is a lack of innovation and growth

As I suspected, a list of complaints made by a person who has obviously never *lived* in one of these Nordic hellholes.

The quality of life is AMAZING and they’re extremely kid/family friendly societies. But they do expect their citizens to be educated and responsible members of the community, so I can see why a person such as yourself would be fearful of that.

I don’t think the QOL is high for working moms with kids. I think it’s the same grind with less flexibility and ability to outsource.

How do you know I’ve never lived there?

Do you disagree with things like the insanely high levels of mortgage debt or inflexible labor market?

Your list of grievances boils down to “I don’t know want to live in a society that isn’t completely divided into the haves and have-nots”. Your complaints about the quality of life of working mothers is patently absurd, given the long parental leaves and easy access to high quality daycare and schooling. (Newsflash: as a society, we don’t have that here.)

Just so you know, you’re still allowed to be a “kept woman” in the Nordics, which seems to be what you’re ultimately concerned about.

NP, but you dismissing her very genuine concerns about how the labor of motherhood is distributed unequally among the genders as a byproduct of the so called egalitarianism of the nordic countries makes YOU come off misogynistic and extremely self centered. It's not a good look, and certainly not emblematic of the progressive mindset you claim to embody. Actually it seems very backwoods, regressive, which is maybe where you're from originally

Did you have ChatGPT produce this word salad for you? Nothing in this paragraph makes any sense. What point are you trying to make? Do you think fathers should take on more of the “labor of motherhood”? Do you know what mothers are and what fathers are?

Seriously, I’m embarrassed for you.

Sure, of course fathers should be taking on some of the labor of motherhood, and trying to make the stress and level of work for their female partner go down. The fact that this is so baffling for you makes it obvious why youve never noticed the issue in your years of living in Nordic nations. What selfish, unempathetic, stupid person.

Should mothers take in the labor of fatherhood? You are incredibly unintelligent, BTW.

LOL of course you would say that. The "what aboutism" whenever someone points out how much more labor mothers do is really not a good look. And if you were trying to genuinely convince people that the Nordic countries (and its fans) are truly all about egalitarianism and equality for women, you just blew up your argument.

LOL. Because I know that mothers are women and fathers are men? Female parents are called mothers and male parents are called fathers? That the labor of *parenthood* is what you probably think you were talking about?

I also don’t give a single sh!t about “egalitarianism and equality for women”. I just know that Nordic countries produce happier, more competent people than the US (which includes men, women, and children).

Maybe Laura Ingraham can read you a bedtime story tonight while you rage cry.

Oh right, the whole "mothers and fathers are different, so who cares if the mother does all the work?" argument. It's okay, you dont have to keep arguing. You already proved the PP's point about how regressive the "egalitarianism" of Nordic countries are, and how said egalitarianism is often used as a smoke screen to dump all the labor on women. Actually, you proved her point quite beautifully, better than she could have herself. What a backwards, regressive person you are.

I honestly have no idea what you’re even talking about.

Please, explain to me like I’m 5:
1). In what specific way(s) are the Nodric countries are “regressive” when it comes to gender egalitarianism
2). How said alleged regressiveness “dumps all the labor on women”
And 3) how I personally have proved “that point quite beautifully”

Please show your work.

Honestly, just click "open thread" and scroll back to the first PP who gave a really well reasoned explanation of her problem with Nordic countries, particularly how the burden of parenting labor is actually unduly placed on women under the guise of egalitarianism. You may literally be 5, it kind of seems that way, but I'm not about to explain it you like you are when you simply could have read the thread before engaging/arguing.
Your misogyny, rude mocking of concerns about women's parening/motherhood labor as "Go cry and listen to Laura Ingraham" has exposed you as nothing more than your run of the mill, regressive, backwoods misogynist. You can move to Norway all you want, you're still a dyed in the wool troglodyte with a third world view of women's labor. But thank you for making that so clear and again, proving women's point about the hidden misogyny in the Nordic culture

Got it. You can’t back up any of your bizarre claims. (FTR PP didn’t have a well reasoned explanation either. She just stated that Nordic countries are regressive. You do know that anyone can say literally anything, right? Doesn’t mean it’s remotely true. Idiot.)

You’re overly defensive. I’m the one who wrote the list about Nordic countries. That’s a personality trait I’ve noticed about Scandinavians. Extreme hostility if anything negative is mentioned about their country. Everyone seems to drink the koolaid and thinks everything is perfect.

You claimed that Nordic countries are repressive to women because the cultural expectation (NB there are no laws mandating this) is that women be financially independent and capable of supporting themselves. You claimed that it is somehow more difficult to raise children there because women are provided with extended maternity leaves and expected to take them (while conveniently not mentioning the fact that men are provided with extended paternity leaves and expected to take them). You also make the case that it is a worse place to raise children because even a *gasp* cleaner can make a living wage. And who would ever want to live in a place where the engineers became engineers primarily because they are passionate about their fields rather than a motivation for money? And the Nordic countries punch way above their weight (based on size alone) when it comes to technological innovation. Educate yourself.

You mention a higher cost of living in everyday life while failing to note the freedom from the need to save for (and stress about): university, healthcare, and retirement.

Your argument (and I am being extremely generous labeling it as such) boils down to “but muh taxes!”

My list is based on personal experiences and anecdotes. Friends over there seem worse off financially and their husbands seem pretty similar to American men but without protections I have. I understand what you’re saying, but in reality it doesn’t seem that great.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would raise them in the USA first because, having lived abroad in many different countries, I think we have by far the best quality of life.
However, outside the US, my top personal choices would be:
Italy, France, Malaysia, England

LOL where exactly did you live? We’re not even CLOSE to having the best quality of life…

Actually we do. This is such nonsense. You spiked Americans have absolutely no idea how good you have it. If the UK was a state it would be #51 in every single metric.

WTF is a “spiked” American?

And you’ve obviously never lived in a Nordic country. Most places in the US are an absolute embarrassment in comparison. We’re still better than Canada, though, and I’ll die on that hill.

Don’t even get me started on Nordic countries.

Incredibly high COL with low salaries
Terrible weather
Lack of innovation and diversity of jobs
Rules/laws about everything
High taxes
*Insane mortgage debt* for income levels
Inflexible labor market due to laws
Everyone making roughly the same amount of money. A cleaner making not much less than an engineer.

Forced gender equality that in reality has just made life more difficult for women and easier for men. For example, women being pushed to take long parental leaves that are low paid with unavailable childcare. Women expected to have completely separate finances even if married and completely provide for themselves. Hence the parental leave since men are now not supporting women after they have children

Group think where everyone is the same and it you’re not, you’re a problem, which is why there is a lack of innovation and growth

As I suspected, a list of complaints made by a person who has obviously never *lived* in one of these Nordic hellholes.

The quality of life is AMAZING and they’re extremely kid/family friendly societies. But they do expect their citizens to be educated and responsible members of the community, so I can see why a person such as yourself would be fearful of that.

I don’t think the QOL is high for working moms with kids. I think it’s the same grind with less flexibility and ability to outsource.

How do you know I’ve never lived there?

Do you disagree with things like the insanely high levels of mortgage debt or inflexible labor market?

Your list of grievances boils down to “I don’t know want to live in a society that isn’t completely divided into the haves and have-nots”. Your complaints about the quality of life of working mothers is patently absurd, given the long parental leaves and easy access to high quality daycare and schooling. (Newsflash: as a society, we don’t have that here.)

Just so you know, you’re still allowed to be a “kept woman” in the Nordics, which seems to be what you’re ultimately concerned about.

NP, but you dismissing her very genuine concerns about how the labor of motherhood is distributed unequally among the genders as a byproduct of the so called egalitarianism of the nordic countries makes YOU come off misogynistic and extremely self centered. It's not a good look, and certainly not emblematic of the progressive mindset you claim to embody. Actually it seems very backwoods, regressive, which is maybe where you're from originally

Did you have ChatGPT produce this word salad for you? Nothing in this paragraph makes any sense. What point are you trying to make? Do you think fathers should take on more of the “labor of motherhood”? Do you know what mothers are and what fathers are?

Seriously, I’m embarrassed for you.

Sure, of course fathers should be taking on some of the labor of motherhood, and trying to make the stress and level of work for their female partner go down. The fact that this is so baffling for you makes it obvious why youve never noticed the issue in your years of living in Nordic nations. What selfish, unempathetic, stupid person.

Should mothers take in the labor of fatherhood? You are incredibly unintelligent, BTW.

LOL of course you would say that. The "what aboutism" whenever someone points out how much more labor mothers do is really not a good look. And if you were trying to genuinely convince people that the Nordic countries (and its fans) are truly all about egalitarianism and equality for women, you just blew up your argument.

LOL. Because I know that mothers are women and fathers are men? Female parents are called mothers and male parents are called fathers? That the labor of *parenthood* is what you probably think you were talking about?

I also don’t give a single sh!t about “egalitarianism and equality for women”. I just know that Nordic countries produce happier, more competent people than the US (which includes men, women, and children).

Maybe Laura Ingraham can read you a bedtime story tonight while you rage cry.

Oh right, the whole "mothers and fathers are different, so who cares if the mother does all the work?" argument. It's okay, you dont have to keep arguing. You already proved the PP's point about how regressive the "egalitarianism" of Nordic countries are, and how said egalitarianism is often used as a smoke screen to dump all the labor on women. Actually, you proved her point quite beautifully, better than she could have herself. What a backwards, regressive person you are.

I honestly have no idea what you’re even talking about.

Please, explain to me like I’m 5:
1). In what specific way(s) are the Nodric countries are “regressive” when it comes to gender egalitarianism
2). How said alleged regressiveness “dumps all the labor on women”
And 3) how I personally have proved “that point quite beautifully”

Please show your work.

Honestly, just click "open thread" and scroll back to the first PP who gave a really well reasoned explanation of her problem with Nordic countries, particularly how the burden of parenting labor is actually unduly placed on women under the guise of egalitarianism. You may literally be 5, it kind of seems that way, but I'm not about to explain it you like you are when you simply could have read the thread before engaging/arguing.
Your misogyny, rude mocking of concerns about women's parening/motherhood labor as "Go cry and listen to Laura Ingraham" has exposed you as nothing more than your run of the mill, regressive, backwoods misogynist. You can move to Norway all you want, you're still a dyed in the wool troglodyte with a third world view of women's labor. But thank you for making that so clear and again, proving women's point about the hidden misogyny in the Nordic culture

Got it. You can’t back up any of your bizarre claims. (FTR PP didn’t have a well reasoned explanation either. She just stated that Nordic countries are regressive. You do know that anyone can say literally anything, right? Doesn’t mean it’s remotely true. Idiot.)

You’re overly defensive. I’m the one who wrote the list about Nordic countries. That’s a personality trait I’ve noticed about Scandinavians. Extreme hostility if anything negative is mentioned about their country. Everyone seems to drink the koolaid and thinks everything is perfect.

You claimed that Nordic countries are repressive to women because the cultural expectation (NB there are no laws mandating this) is that women be financially independent and capable of supporting themselves. You claimed that it is somehow more difficult to raise children there because women are provided with extended maternity leaves and expected to take them (while conveniently not mentioning the fact that men are provided with extended paternity leaves and expected to take them). You also make the case that it is a worse place to raise children because even a *gasp* cleaner can make a living wage. And who would ever want to live in a place where the engineers became engineers primarily because they are passionate about their fields rather than a motivation for money? And the Nordic countries punch way above their weight (based on size alone) when it comes to technological innovation. Educate yourself.

You mention a higher cost of living in everyday life while failing to note the freedom from the need to save for (and stress about): university, healthcare, and retirement.

Your argument (and I am being extremely generous labeling it as such) boils down to “but muh taxes!”

This is one of those things that sounds great but makes it more difficult for an educated working mom.

My friend works for google and is working PT because she was working five days and found out that it was the same amount of money if she worked PT and got rid of her cleaners.

Because she has kids she’s in this second class status at work since her company is required to allowed her to work PT. She’s an engineer that can’t hire a house cleaners and that strikes me as odd. She explains it is because they make almost the same amount of money as she does.

Her husband doesn’t do much at home so she’s essentially working PT to take care of domestic duties.

I know that the government benefits in these countries are generous but when I see them in practice, it doesn’t seem as great as it sounds.

[Anonymous]

America’s a big country. We live 2 blocks from the beach, our kids ride their bikes around the neighborhood with their friends, the neighborhood is tight-knit. Happy hours once a month, beach volleyball once a week. Elderly teach the young kids to fish. The school is top notch. They use the beach to teach marine biology. Kids go to all the great colleges.

I’m sure there are places like this we would love abroad, but we’re people of color. Here, there is diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:America’s a big country. We live 2 blocks from the beach, our kids ride their bikes around the neighborhood with their friends, the neighborhood is tight-knit. Happy hours once a month, beach volleyball once a week. Elderly teach the young kids to fish. The school is top notch. They use the beach to teach marine biology. Kids go to all the great colleges.

I’m sure there are places like this we would love abroad, but we’re people of color. Here, there is diversity.

Word?

[Anonymous]

Whatever you choose look at tax rates, inheritance tax, etc. if you were to die in Germany or France, your kids will only see half of what you own in the US. Much better rules in Italy and Portugal…

I would choose Italy or Spain. Better food quality, cheaper life (even though taxes are high), lots of focus on kids, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:America’s a big country. We live 2 blocks from the beach, our kids ride their bikes around the neighborhood with their friends, the neighborhood is tight-knit. Happy hours once a month, beach volleyball once a week. Elderly teach the young kids to fish. The school is top notch. They use the beach to teach marine biology. Kids go to all the great colleges.

I’m sure there are places like this we would love abroad, but we’re people of color. Here, there is diversity.

Where is this and how much is your house?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up myself in USA and in Europe. I am raising my kids overseas. I would 100% rather raise them in nearly any western european major city to the USA for multiple reasons mainly because of safety, independence and quality of life. Happy to answer more questions!

Do you plan to have your kids go through all the way to college where you are, or do you plan to have them come back to the US for college?
I always wonder if those who are raising kids in another country (and love it there) plan to stay all the way through beyond highschool, and what the prospects are for the job market. I'm not sure any other country has it better than the US in terms of upward mobility and employment opportunities.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Has anyone commenting on this thread actually moved countries with kids? I have but no point in sharing. I get the impression people here are more interested in denigrating the priorities and choices of other people than actually understanding or exploring why people choose differently. I guess that DCUM for you.

Most of the people posting on here don't know anything firsthand about the countries they are posting about. I guarantee you that all the people posting about the Scandinavian countries have never been there or don't know the culture(s) well. If they did, they would be a lot less likely to want to move there.

Sure. But you do recognise people have different experiences? I loved living in London and think it’s a great place to raise kids but others will disagree with me based on their own circumstances and priorities. I have no problem with that and don’t dismiss them as idiots as tends to happen on this thread.

Sure, people have different experiences. It's just clear from many of the comments in this thread that quite a few people that commented don't have first hand knowledge. Remember (if you saw it) that thread about places you hated that kind of devolved into an India thread? I lived in India as an expat for a number of years. I liked living in India. Tons of people hate it. Different experiences. I can see why some people hate it. Same for raising kids in London (although money helps there, it is pretty $$$)

OP would be much better asking this in an expat site where people might share their actual experiences of the benefits and challenges. Too many people here just wanting to slag off Canada or trying to assert that the US is in fact the best place to raise kids.

I lived in Canada as well as half a dozen other countries. Canada is a good place to raise children if you are UMC and live in a big metro area. Just like the US. Out in the boonies or with low income, it sucks. Also just like the US. Actually, that seems to be the general rule for a lot of countries. Perhaps instead of wishing you lived somewhere different, just try to be a rich person. Money pretty much solves everything.

Tell that to the rich non‐aryan people in Germany from 1933-45

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone commenting on this thread actually moved countries with kids? I have but no point in sharing. I get the impression people here are more interested in denigrating the priorities and choices of other people than actually understanding or exploring why people choose differently. I guess that DCUM for you.

Most of the people posting on here don't know anything firsthand about the countries they are posting about. I guarantee you that all the people posting about the Scandinavian countries have never been there or don't know the culture(s) well. If they did, they would be a lot less likely to want to move there.

Sure. But you do recognise people have different experiences? I loved living in London and think it’s a great place to raise kids but others will disagree with me based on their own circumstances and priorities. I have no problem with that and don’t dismiss them as idiots as tends to happen on this thread.

Sure, people have different experiences. It's just clear from many of the comments in this thread that quite a few people that commented don't have first hand knowledge. Remember (if you saw it) that thread about places you hated that kind of devolved into an India thread? I lived in India as an expat for a number of years. I liked living in India. Tons of people hate it. Different experiences. I can see why some people hate it. Same for raising kids in London (although money helps there, it is pretty $$$)

OP would be much better asking this in an expat site where people might share their actual experiences of the benefits and challenges. Too many people here just wanting to slag off Canada or trying to assert that the US is in fact the best place to raise kids.

I lived in Canada as well as half a dozen other countries. Canada is a good place to raise children if you are UMC and live in a big metro area. Just like the US. Out in the boonies or with low income, it sucks. Also just like the US. Actually, that seems to be the general rule for a lot of countries. Perhaps instead of wishing you lived somewhere different, just try to be a rich person. Money pretty much solves everything.

Tell that to the rich non‐aryan people in Germany from 1933-45

Many of whom had the means to escape whereas the poor were trapped.

[Anonymous]

OPs criteria are a bit contradictory. Slower pace is pretty much everywhere but megacities--but if you want less reliance on cars, you'll have to be in a city or be very good at bicycling. Canada or Scandinavia for the better air quality.

But if I ignored OP's criteria, I would prefer to be in Singapore, Malaysia or Thailand. The air quality isn't great, but they're super safe, the food is great, travel in the region is amazing and except for Singapore, the cost of living and private schools aren't that expensive. If you don't mind hot weather, it's great!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would raise them in the USA first because, having lived abroad in many different countries, I think we have by far the best quality of life.
However, outside the US, my top personal choices would be:
Italy, France, Malaysia, England

I've recently moved back from living overseas, and think that living in America is hard. Yes, everything is available here and there are infinite opportunities, but everything is expensive, including the household help that makes parenting much more manageable/pleasant when you're a working parent, and if you're not a 1%er the quality of life can be far lower. And it's not that safe, particularly the schools, which is stressful.

[Anonymous]

Honestly-the US has it good and I think a lot of you romanticize living in an other country. Seriously.

I wouldn’t move to a lot of places for the smoking alone. Being in a place where smoking is allowed pretty much everywhere and everybody smokes is awful. Especially in the summer.

But seriously-a lot of places are good for a vacation but would be terrible to live in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:America’s a big country. We live 2 blocks from the beach, our kids ride their bikes around the neighborhood with their friends, the neighborhood is tight-knit. Happy hours once a month, beach volleyball once a week. Elderly teach the young kids to fish. The school is top notch. They use the beach to teach marine biology. Kids go to all the great colleges.

I’m sure there are places like this we would love abroad, but we’re people of color. Here, there is diversity.

Where is this and how much is your house?

This is the best part: $550K. Houses directly on the water go for over $1.5M. Houses off the water with water view $850K. We have neither, but we also don’t have the maintenance or insurance that comes with waterfront or adjacent properties.

My family moved a lot, and I learned early on not to search by country or city but rather by community. Who do I want in my community and what kind of community do I want?

I like diversity, warmth and culture. I don’t like anxiety or rat races or a lot of emphasis on prestige at the cost of happiness. These pockets exist everywhere. They are not as easily found as those who search by highest priced neighborhoods, but they exist.

Even in DC our friends who could’ve bought a beautiful, single family home on Chain Bridge Road chose an apartment zoned for Janney, where there were Janny kids throughout the building. The building had its own pool. Also kids could walk to Janney in groups to use the field and playground.

America has so much diversity you can really choose the place that makes you happy.

[Anonymous]

We moved to Ecuador while we were both working remotely. There are good inexpensive private schools and, if you're making a US salary, you can live very, very well--nice house, house cleaners, travel, etc. We could easily live on one income. The downsides relate mostly to infrastructure--power losses, only bottled water, insane potholes, etc. We love being bilingual, raising kids in another country and having opportunities to travel around south america.

[Anonymous]

PP living in ecuador. We like living in the US too and will probably go back at some point to be closer to family....but it's so interesting to live abroad.