Harvard will require Test Scores starting next year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

Please. Show me the data where all the TO kids are dropping out of college. It's like the only place you learn is through the posts that repeat your biased, uninformed perspective. That is not why they are resinstating. They are reinstating to do better at admitting a range of qualified kid--and mostly to stop getting sued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

The SAT is less biased than letters of rec, sports, activities, and GPA. It is one of the least biased parts of an application.

+100

Citations for this? It's just not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

Tend to agree. I think it’s a reflection of how ill prepared TO kids were.

There is zero evidence of this or else schools would be releasing the hard data

[Anonymous]

Then why are they ending TO my friend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

So you’re saying the math test isn’t biased, the problem is that students are not able to learn the math to begin with because of subpar teaching methods. Therefore the math test is accurately showing that they don’t know how to do the math. That’s not bias in the test, that’s another problem entirely.

I think you are just too far removed and ingrained in your own biases to see how those things are inseparable. Biased process means biased test, that's how that works. That's why the tests have been considered biased for so many years. Because it is easy for average, neurotypical students to learn how to do the "straight math" problems. You seem to need to fold all over yourself to actually not see the bias. It's not like this is really an arguable point. Schools aren't reinstating because they all of a sudden believe the system isn't biased. One large class of people, for whom the bias benefits, sued, and now they have to reinstate them. It's fine. It's still not going to advantage the students with 1500 and higher any more than they are already are. So perhaps it's just not worth arguing with those of you who, even after having these issues drilled into you for past four years, still don't get it. I really don't care. Your average kid will still be going to an average college with his 1500, so whatever.

You keep saying a lot of words, but the fundamental truth is that the kids who can answer more math problems correctly know more math. There are a lot of reasons for that and it looks like schools are taking that into consideration.

[Anonymous]

They’re ending TO because they were stuck in a vicious spiral where the 25th percentile score kept rising, meaning that kids they wanted with objectively good scores were not submitting because they mistakenly believed 1480 was “too low.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Then why are they ending TO my friend?

To limit the number of applications and because higher test scores benefitted kids in worse schools. Not because there is a generation of dumb dumbs zombie walking through their campuses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

The SAT is less biased than letters of rec, sports, activities, and GPA. It is one of the least biased parts of an application.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

Please. Show me the data where all the TO kids are dropping out of college. It's like the only place you learn is through the posts that repeat your biased, uninformed perspective. That is not why they are resinstating. They are reinstating to do better at admitting a range of qualified kid--and mostly to stop getting sued.

I didn’t say they were dropping out, I said they weren’t performing as well. The data UT released showed that students admitted test optional has a gpa a full point less than those who submitted test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Not PP, but seriously, undoubtedly yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

Please. Show me the data where all the TO kids are dropping out of college. It's like the only place you learn is through the posts that repeat your biased, uninformed perspective. That is not why they are resinstating. They are reinstating to do better at admitting a range of qualified kid--and mostly to stop getting sued.

I didn’t say they were dropping out, I said they weren’t performing as well. The data UT released showed that students admitted test optional has a gpa a full point less than those who submitted test scores.

DP: UT data was significant. The data from Dartmouth, Brown, Yale, etc. was a difference of .3-.5 points, e.g., 3.3 vs 3.6. They are using the data to bolster their policy change but the real reasons are equity/access, control resources (too many apps/ not enough time/labor), and legal cover.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

Please. Show me the data where all the TO kids are dropping out of college. It's like the only place you learn is through the posts that repeat your biased, uninformed perspective. That is not why they are resinstating. They are reinstating to do better at admitting a range of qualified kid--and mostly to stop getting sued.

I didn’t say they were dropping out, I said they weren’t performing as well. The data UT released showed that students admitted test optional has a gpa a full point less than those who submitted test scores.

DP: UT data was significant. The data from Dartmouth, Brown, Yale, etc. was a difference of .3-.5 points, e.g., 3.3 vs 3.6. They are using the data to bolster their policy change but the real reasons are equity/access, control resources (too many apps/ not enough time/labor), and legal cover.

Yes, they said that because they want minorities and first gen to continue to apply. But that isn’t the reason for the change, test optional was an experiment that didn’t work.

I don’t have the desire to go back and look at what the other schools released but I don’t think they all released information about gpa differentials so I think your reference to 3 plus schools is incorrect.

At Caltech, the faculty asked the school’s admin to reconsider test blind because of faculty concerns about declining student performance. The result was yesterday’s return to test required after a month or two of research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They’re ending TO because they were stuck in a vicious spiral where the 25th percentile score kept rising, meaning that kids they wanted with objectively good scores were not submitting because they mistakenly believed 1480 was “too low.”

Yes and college counselors kept recommending that if you were not 50th percentile or above for school to not submit even if it was a good score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They’re ending TO because they were stuck in a vicious spiral where the 25th percentile score kept rising, meaning that kids they wanted with objectively good scores were not submitting because they mistakenly believed 1480 was “too low.”

This. But we can say this 1,000 times and the poor parents whose 1510-scoring darling didn't get into Princeton will claim they would have if not for TO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

Please. Show me the data where all the TO kids are dropping out of college. It's like the only place you learn is through the posts that repeat your biased, uninformed perspective. That is not why they are resinstating. They are reinstating to do better at admitting a range of qualified kid--and mostly to stop getting sued.

I didn’t say they were dropping out, I said they weren’t performing as well. The data UT released showed that students admitted test optional has a gpa a full point less than those who submitted test scores.

So what? That's not why they're reinstating? Who cares if a kid who didn't have the same benefits that a rich white kid did graduates with a B average? You people really will never ever get it and I don't know why I find it so infuriating.