Harvard will require Test Scores starting next year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Not PP, but seriously, undoubtedly yes.

That is a seriously uninformed, small-minded, and frankly just plain stupid position to take. And that right there is why little Susie with her "very good SAT" scores didn't get in. Genetics. So "sad."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Not PP, but seriously, undoubtedly yes.

That is a seriously uninformed, small-minded, and frankly just plain stupid position to take. And that right there is why little Susie with her "very good SAT" scores didn't get in. Genetics. So "sad."

Should we speculate on why you are so triggered?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

Tend to agree. I think it’s a reflection of how ill prepared TO kids were.

There is zero evidence of this or else schools would be releasing the hard data

No way would they release that data and admit failure.

[Anonymous]

Not surprised they changed their policy.

Very surprised that they reversed, when they could have easily announced this in the fall for class for 2026/30

Their outcomes must be poor to rationalize making this reversal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

Please. Show me the data where all the TO kids are dropping out of college. It's like the only place you learn is through the posts that repeat your biased, uninformed perspective. That is not why they are resinstating. They are reinstating to do better at admitting a range of qualified kid--and mostly to stop getting sued.

I didn’t say they were dropping out, I said they weren’t performing as well. The data UT released showed that students admitted test optional has a gpa a full point less than those who submitted test scores.

So what? That's not why they're reinstating? Who cares if a kid who didn't have the same benefits that a rich white kid did graduates with a B average? You people really will never ever get it and I don't know why I find it so infuriating.

Why? Because you are way too emotionally invested in what strangers on the internet think. You think you are right and you think you can change their minds. Put the screen down and back away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

It is one part of a big admissions package. All of the pieces have the kind of bias you note in them, some worse than others. What alternative do you offer that will help colleges know who is prepared for the education thee offer? Is there anything (in your opinion) that is unbiased enough to be used?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

Yup. Cannot do well in SAT math.

Why?

The only logical reason is 100+ years ago there is slavery.

[Anonymous]

Advocates for TO or test blind admissions deserve all the infuriating moments coming their way. They have unsuccessfully attempted to justify these failed policies for plenty of pseudoscience reasons, but it has always been about the test results in their own homes.

They didn't care about access to education. Otherwise, trade schools, community colleges, or state schools would have been more than enough to wet their beak.

They cared about access to "prestigious" education, and if sticking it to the higher-performing kids who have always stood in the way of their kids getting a piece of that prestige pie, they were overjoyed to help crash this DEI jalopy into the ditch we now find ourselves in.

Sending their far too often unprepared kid to a top school was the aim. Taking seats away from more qualified applicants was just a vindictive bonus. But again, as long as they got "theirs".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not surprised they changed their policy.

Very surprised that they reversed, when they could have easily announced this in the fall for class for 2026/30

Their outcomes must be poor to rationalize making this reversal

I think they just want to be leaders, not followers. Yes, they’re following Dartmouth, Yale, and Brown, but there’s a lot of dominos yet to fall. Harvard wants to be in the vanguard, not bringing up the rear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not surprised they changed their policy.

Very surprised that they reversed, when they could have easily announced this in the fall for class for 2026/30

Their outcomes must be poor to rationalize making this reversal

I think they just want to be leaders, not followers. Yes, they’re following Dartmouth, Yale, and Brown, but there’s a lot of dominos yet to fall. Harvard wants to be in the vanguard, not bringing up the rear.

once, MIT, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth went back and places like Georgetown, UT Austin require it, you're hardly a leader here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

So you’re saying the math test isn’t biased, the problem is that students are not able to learn the math to begin with because of subpar teaching methods. Therefore the math test is accurately showing that they don’t know how to do the math. That’s not bias in the test, that’s another problem entirely.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

So you’re saying the math test isn’t biased, the problem is that students are not able to learn the math to begin with because of subpar teaching methods. Therefore the math test is accurately showing that they don’t know how to do the math. That’s not bias in the test, that’s another problem entirely.

+1000

+1000 here, too.

Just done with this strident BS defense of DEI to justify a broken system that pretends that actual level of preparedness isn't relevant to the pursuit of higher education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

Oh dear god, how can you be this dumb and believe that you're so smart?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:yep.
Whatever will the 4/4.6 1390 poor test-taking children of DCUM do?

Same thing the off the chart brilliant 1600 SAT kid with 3.5 gpa does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Not PP, but seriously, undoubtedly yes.

That is a seriously uninformed, small-minded, and frankly just plain stupid position to take. And that right there is why little Susie with her "very good SAT" scores didn't get in. Genetics. So "sad."

Should we speculate on why you are so triggered?

Don't worry angry poster, your kid never has to tell people they got in test optional.