Harvard will require Test Scores starting next year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

+1 typical DSCUM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people are insane. Who GAF what Harvard does and whether or not they get the "best" by whatever standard you apply. The vast majority of your kids are not getting into Harvard.

(And no I do not think a test score is indicative of whether you'd do well at any school. There are a lot of factors that play into that.)

Studies have show that a high SAT score is indicative of how well a student will perform in college. The UC study found exactly this. That's why schools like MIT and Caltech, others, and now Harvard are bringing back tests.

That is 100% false, wrong, uninformed. That is not why they are bringing it back. Again, Harvard, MIT, and most of UC schools, do not care about only having the tippy top SAT scoring students enter their universities. They want high performing students of all walks and of differing abilities to make well-rounded, engaging, student bodies. Do they have to do it to stop all the stupid law suits? Yes. But this does not mean that Skip from Yorktown with the 1550 will now get in over Dave from Jackson Reed with the 1400, with the implication that up until then Dave was "hiding" his score. With TO, Dave would not have submitted his test score, so the schools could only see that Dave has a high GPA from a school that is known for giving high GPAs just for showing up. So, they can only assume that Dave didn't submit score because it was very low and he probably can't do the work. Now, Dave has to submit his 1400, top schools will see that Dave is actually a strong candidate, and he will get in over Skip from Yorktown. This does not improve the chances of high scoring test takers in the least. It widens the pool actually. I cannot believe how many times this has to be explained to you people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people are insane. Who GAF what Harvard does and whether or not they get the "best" by whatever standard you apply. The vast majority of your kids are not getting into Harvard.

(And no I do not think a test score is indicative of whether you'd do well at any school. There are a lot of factors that play into that.)

Studies have show that a high SAT score is indicative of how well a student will perform in college. The UC study found exactly this. That's why schools like MIT and Caltech, others, and now Harvard are bringing back tests.

That is 100% false, wrong, uninformed. That is not why they are bringing it back. Again, Harvard, MIT, and most of UC schools, do not care about only having the tippy top SAT scoring students enter their universities. They want high performing students of all walks and of differing abilities to make well-rounded, engaging, student bodies. Do they have to do it to stop all the stupid law suits? Yes. But this does not mean that Skip from Yorktown with the 1550 will now get in over Dave from Jackson Reed with the 1400, with the implication that up until then Dave was "hiding" his score. With TO, Dave would not have submitted his test score, so the schools could only see that Dave has a high GPA from a school that is known for giving high GPAs just for showing up. So, they can only assume that Dave didn't submit score because it was very low and he probably can't do the work. Now, Dave has to submit his 1400, top schools will see that Dave is actually a strong candidate, and he will get in over Skip from Yorktown. This does not improve the chances of high scoring test takers in the least. It widens the pool actually. I cannot believe how many times this has to be explained to you people.

+1

Dartmouth essentially the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

Also, intersectionality between LDs and students of color. Making it biased against students with LDs and students of color. The whole college admissions process is biased for all these reasons, but when so much weight is put on high scores of one single piece of the process, it's just too much of a barrier for a large number of students and much less so toward neurotypical, wealthy students, with lots of resources to learn how to do the "straight math" problems. Does that help? Fortunately, the reinstatement of test scores is not being implemented to let in more 1500+ students, but to widen the range of scores for admitted students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You people are insane. Who GAF what Harvard does and whether or not they get the "best" by whatever standard you apply. The vast majority of your kids are not getting into Harvard.

(And no I do not think a test score is indicative of whether you'd do well at any school. There are a lot of factors that play into that.)

Studies have show that a high SAT score is indicative of how well a student will perform in college. The UC study found exactly this. That's why schools like MIT and Caltech, others, and now Harvard are bringing back tests.

That is 100% false, wrong, uninformed. That is not why they are bringing it back. Again, Harvard, MIT, and most of UC schools, do not care about only having the tippy top SAT scoring students enter their universities. They want high performing students of all walks and of differing abilities to make well-rounded, engaging, student bodies. Do they have to do it to stop all the stupid law suits? Yes. But this does not mean that Skip from Yorktown with the 1550 will now get in over Dave from Jackson Reed with the 1400, with the implication that up until then Dave was "hiding" his score. With TO, Dave would not have submitted his test score, so the schools could only see that Dave has a high GPA from a school that is known for giving high GPAs just for showing up. So, they can only assume that Dave didn't submit score because it was very low and he probably can't do the work. Now, Dave has to submit his 1400, top schools will see that Dave is actually a strong candidate, and he will get in over Skip from Yorktown. This does not improve the chances of high scoring test takers in the least. It widens the pool actually. I cannot believe how many times this has to be explained to you people.

+1

Dartmouth essentially the same.

It really benefits kids scoring 1400–1520 or so, who can stop with their very good score rather than retesting 6 times to get the 1530 superscore that they (or their parents and counselors) think they need to submit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

So you’re saying the math test isn’t biased, the problem is that students are not able to learn the math to begin with because of subpar teaching methods. Therefore the math test is accurately showing that they don’t know how to do the math. That’s not bias in the test, that’s another problem entirely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

So you believe some stupid kid who had a lower score but didn't have to show it took her spot? Seriously?

Absolutely, I think most kids admitted test optional would not have gotten in otherwise (that’s 20 to 50 percent of the class at most schools). And the fact that these kids aren’t performing well two years and schools are rushing to go back to test required reinforces that belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

Tend to agree. I think it’s a reflection of how ill prepared TO kids were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously. The test optional thing was a weird experiment and there is no evidence that it accomplished anything useful, and some evidence it was genuinely detrimental. Good riddance.

Being good at taking tests is not the most important thing in life and everyone should remind themselves of that. But it turns out that people who do test well, and are able to get very high scores on college preparedness tests, tend to also do best in college, where they will also be expected to regularly take tests. It's okay that not everyone goes to an Ivy, or becomes a lawyer or doctor or academic or MBA or whatever. It's not the only option in life.

Just realize that Harvard isn't going to accept your kids with a 1580 over one with a 1500 based on the SAT alone. They will consider them "the same"/made the cut, and then look at everything else. I don't think requiring tests will have the effect most "high stats" parents want.
Fact is T20 schools only want to see your kid meet a baseline for the testing, then they still want to look at everything else. A 1600 doesn't differentiate your kid from a 1520 kid really.
These schools will still be highly rejective.

I think everyone knows this. What they object to is a 1300 SAT kid who hides that score, goes TO and gets in on some 'woke' quota. Hopefully this fixes that!

Woke quota?! Omg I never cease to be amazed by the things that people will actually say (type). Do you assume that the URM students that you see have lower scores? How racist.

I assume the bolded is true because, in fact, this is exactly what Harvard's own data showed in the discovery portion of the SCt case

+1. AA hurts the kids it’s intended to help the most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

Yup, this makes me sad for my dd who was 2023 and had very good SAT scores. Fortunately, she loves where she wound up.

My class of 2022 did have the chance to take the SAT twice but it was very hard to schedule and never tried the ACT. Had to go to Springfield and we live in Montgomery Cty. The ones near us kept getting cancelled. My class of 2024 had many many opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

I'm a DP, and I need you to explain this to me like I'm 5 because I don't understand how math problems are biased.

The way math is taught is biased. It's obviously not the problem itself. But when classrooms and instruction are developed to teach to one learning style, then there's no way for every student to learn how to do the straight math problem. Making the standardized tests inaccessible for a large number of very bright students who are not taught in the way they need to be. Therefore, biased.

So you’re saying the math test isn’t biased, the problem is that students are not able to learn the math to begin with because of subpar teaching methods. Therefore the math test is accurately showing that they don’t know how to do the math. That’s not bias in the test, that’s another problem entirely.

I think you are just too far removed and ingrained in your own biases to see how those things are inseparable. Biased process means biased test, that's how that works. That's why the tests have been considered biased for so many years. Because it is easy for average, neurotypical students to learn how to do the "straight math" problems. You seem to need to fold all over yourself to actually not see the bias. It's not like this is really an arguable point. Schools aren't reinstating because they all of a sudden believe the system isn't biased. One large class of people, for whom the bias benefits, sued, and now they have to reinstate them. It's fine. It's still not going to advantage the students with 1500 and higher any more than they are already are. So perhaps it's just not worth arguing with those of you who, even after having these issues drilled into you for past four years, still don't get it. I really don't care. Your average kid will still be going to an average college with his 1500, so whatever.