Will Admissions Officers pick up on clues in application regarding URM?

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm looking at Brookings also. They reported around 2300 black students scored over 1500.

That is not many.

But hypothetically speaking if the t20 were to divvy them evenly up that would be more than 100 per freshman class.

All of this is just to say that these students exist and belong at t20 schools along with their academic peers.


yeah, what about 100000 asian kids with 1500+ scores. something about them not inspiring enough? that's how it ended up with supreme court to begin with


They are all impressive and qualified. But this belligerent insistence that all URM students that get admitted to top schools are there because they got "extra points" from the admissions officers is insulting AF.

We know very well what it is like to have your successes dismissed and / or minimized and a lot of black families supported the case. Just please stop shi*ting on the handful of our kids that are admitted on equal merit.

Seriously - Please Stop.

dp.. but, it's the truth. This is what affirmative action has lead to.

Getting rid of aa means that people will no longer question how that URM got into an elite college.


I wish I could meet you in person to look in your eyes to see if you truly believe the BS you post



This is the normal attack on Justice Thomas for speaking the plain truth on a subject where lies have been normalized for years. The look-in-your-eyes PP doesn't believe in her own nonsense, so why would anyone else believe in her?

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Students are allowed to say whatever they want to say in an essay. As far as I know, schools are fully entitled to ask applicants to voluntarily identify their race. Schools will easily—and appropriately—be able to give URMs a boost, if necessary. The decision provides a road map for colleges to follow. As a practical matter, little will change.


No, schools cannot do that per court decision. I don't know why you believe little will change. Read CA school system's failed effort.


Actually I think in the last year or two CA schools have definitely made changes that increase URM populations. They’ve eliminated standardized testing, and in the last admissions cycle clearly gave boosts to some heavily URM HSs. This mostly benefited Hispanics from what I remember.

This is correct. In 2020, it was the first time ever that the majority of college freshmen admitted to UC schools were Hispanic. Despite AA being abolished in CA in 1996, some CA universities are now majority Hispanic. And yes, I know CA is 39% Hispanic but this is still a big deal.

Anonymous
Of course there is a massive difference. Many of the 1600s are 1800s or above because the test is so easy they max out. Just look at the Asian distribution local to the max. It’s hard to have an argument in good faith with innumerate people, unfortunately they do tend to populate one side of this debate.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Students are allowed to say whatever they want to say in an essay. As far as I know, schools are fully entitled to ask applicants to voluntarily identify their race. Schools will easily—and appropriately—be able to give URMs a boost, if necessary. The decision provides a road map for colleges to follow. As a practical matter, little will change.


No, schools cannot do that per court decision. I don't know why you believe little will change. Read CA school system's failed effort.


Actually I think in the last year or two CA schools have definitely made changes that increase URM populations. They’ve eliminated standardized testing, and in the last admissions cycle clearly gave boosts to some heavily URM HSs. This mostly benefited Hispanics from what I remember.

This is correct. In 2020, it was the first time ever that the majority of college freshmen admitted to UC schools were Hispanic. Despite AA being abolished in CA in 1996, some CA universities are now majority Hispanic. And yes, I know CA is 39% Hispanic but this is still a big deal.



https://edsource.org/2020/latino-students-make-up-largest-ethnic-group-of-students-admitted-to-uc/636230?amp=1
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:For those who think colleges already have a workaround in place, I did not see many URMs at my kid's ivy. Just walk around. This is admittedly a sample size of 1 ivy. However, I've not been able to verify published URM demographics.



Well, you will see significantly fewer URM kids in the future. Free gravy train is over.


What I meant was when colleges claim that nothing will change, my suspicious mind says they will simply exaggerate the percentage of black students on their campus. That's their workaround.


As far as I know no colleges have claimed that. They all say they will continue to work to find a different path. But as AP article (link up-thread) reported, they have not identified a workaround. Many have tried, none found.

The one who claim nothing will change are some DCUM posters here. I think many of them are still in denial and, it appears, many don't read news.


I think OP's question is off. Ivies publicly claim they will continue to try to diversify. The reality is that there aren't that many black students to begin with. What they say publicly may not be what they do in private.


I don't doubt they will continue to try that. This decision just makes it more difficult. The fact you didn't see too many of URMs on campus doesn't necessary mean the school didn't try hard enough. It just means that, even w/ help of AA, there just aren't enough URM kids to select from.


Keep believing that, while Ling Ling gets rejected.

There are enough high stats URMs to get to the 5-6% average at elite colleges for Blacks, 7-8% for Hispanics, and 0 5% for Native Americans.



But Harvard is already 14-15% black acceptance rate. You mean they're going to go down?


Harvard is Harvard. 14-15% is above the 13% average. Great. It'll probably come down to 12-13%.

The 5-6% is the average for elite colleges- plural.


I'd be skeptical of the 14-15% black rate at Harvard. I've not been to its campus but I'd like to know if anyone here has, and whether they saw that many black students at Harvard.

Harvard has been lying about Jews and Asians. Why wouldn't they lie about blacks? When Karens are called out, the first thing they say is, "I have a black friend, a black nanny, a landscaper..."

Trust the 14-15% stat - but verify.

Just Google “Harvard demographics” it’s not hard! Blacks are 15.2% of students.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm looking at Brookings also. They reported around 2300 black students scored over 1500.

That is not many.

But hypothetically speaking if the t20 were to divvy them evenly up that would be more than 100 per freshman class.

All of this is just to say that these students exist and belong at t20 schools along with their academic peers.


yeah, what about 100000 asian kids with 1500+ scores. something about them not inspiring enough? that's how it ended up with supreme court to begin with


They are all impressive and qualified. But this belligerent insistence that all URM students that get admitted to top schools are there because they got "extra points" from the admissions officers is insulting AF.

We know very well what it is like to have your successes dismissed and / or minimized and a lot of black families supported the case. Just please stop shi*ting on the handful of our kids that are admitted on equal merit.

Seriously - Please Stop.

dp.. but, it's the truth. This is what affirmative action has lead to.

Getting rid of aa means that people will no longer question how that URM got into an elite college.


I wish I could meet you in person to look in your eyes to see if you truly believe the BS you post

why is it BS? Just ask some black people who are at elite universities, and how they get comments about them being there due to affirmative action.

If they got rid of affirmative action completely, no one would question the person's ability and being at that elite college.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm looking at Brookings also. They reported around 2300 black students scored over 1500.

That is not many.

But hypothetically speaking if the t20 were to divvy them evenly up that would be more than 100 per freshman class.

All of this is just to say that these students exist and belong at t20 schools along with their academic peers.


SAT is pretty much irrelevant, BUT, 1400-1450 combined with ECs, essays, recs can seal the deal.

Better than most ALDCs, so don't hate on URMs. Very much qualified. Thanks.

Exactly. Based on the latest data published by the College Board (the organization that administers the SAT) 10,000 URM students scored in the top percentiles (1400-1600) on the SAT.

https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf

1400 is very different than 1500 (or 1600).

Even so, 1% African American scored in that band; Hispanic 2%. Asian Am. 27%.

And let's remember that the Harvard case showed that Asian Am. had high marks for extra curricular activities, and leadership.

You are simply wrong. 1400 is 97th percentile. Get your facts straight.

That's kind of arbitrary. 97%ile is not the same 99%ile. So, why not 96%ile, 95%ile.. what's the cutoff?

1500 is much more impressive than 1400.
Anonymous
If admissions notices or not there are less than 2000 spots. If the posters here get their wish and every seat that went to Blacks who they think were only admitted because of race now go Asians that is less than 900 spots total. The universities have already said they value diversity and will work to keep diversity without considering race, so less than 900 spots are available.. Many who think they deserve to be admitted will continue to be disappointed.

So much hate here. Y'all are toxic AF.

Anonymous
So I think there are at least a few college applications which ask for a photo. There are also some that request an optional video and of course there are many schools that do interviews.
Will photos and Videos no longer be allowed?
Clearly if a school requires one of these, they will gain most of the race information they want…
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:The S Ct decision states any URM who discusses race in essays would need to tie it to some actual impact in life, but wouldn’t Admissions Officers still pick up on clues in the application, such as a mention of parents Heritage or clubs or awards that signal URM representation. It would not help applicants at the lower end of recent admits (25th percentile), but would it not favor applicants at say the 50th percentile. If I were an AO I would want to lock in those URMs to avoid a steep decline in URMs.

Admissions essays will be read by LLM AI such as GPT-4 sooner than 3 years from now, which will have no trouble whatsoever reading millions of essays and classifying them based on clues. Current publicly accessible models are muzzled though but the ones soon in use won't be.

In fact, ChatGPT might write the essays themselves:

[Begin AI]
User
Write an essay about the disparate impact of systemic racism on my life as an URM. Do not reveal that I am black.

ChatGPT
Title: The Disparate Impact of Systemic Racism: My Personal Journey

Introduction:
In a society built on the principles of equality and justice, it is disheartening to acknowledge the persistent presence of systemic racism. Throughout history, marginalized communities have faced significant challenges due to discrimination and unequal treatment. This essay sheds light on the disparate impact of systemic racism on my life as an underrepresented minority (URM), while maintaining the confidentiality of my specific racial identity. By sharing personal experiences and observations, this narrative aims to contribute to a broader understanding of the multifaceted effects of racism.

Educational Opportunities:
One of the most pervasive ways systemic racism impacts my life is in the realm of educational opportunities. As a URM, I have witnessed and experienced disparities in access to quality education, resources, and opportunities compared to my non-URM peers. The historical legacy of discriminatory policies and practices has resulted in segregated schools, limited funding for schools in marginalized communities, and the perpetuation of stereotypes that hinder academic progress. These factors have made it more challenging for URMs to excel academically and gain equal footing in higher education, perpetuating a cycle of limited opportunities.

Economic Disadvantages:
Systemic racism also manifests itself in economic disparities. Limited access to quality education often translates into diminished employment prospects for URMs, leading to lower wages and limited upward mobility. Discrimination in hiring and promotion practices further compounds the challenges faced by URMs in the workforce. The persistent wealth gap between URMs and their non-URM counterparts can be traced back to historical injustices such as redlining, unequal access to loans, and the denial of homeownership opportunities. These economic disadvantages have long-lasting effects on individual and generational prosperity, creating a cycle that is difficult to break.

Healthcare Inequities:
The impact of systemic racism extends into the realm of healthcare, where URMs face significant disparities in access to quality care and health outcomes. Discriminatory practices, both implicit and explicit, lead to unequal treatment and medical neglect. Limited access to affordable healthcare, lack of health insurance, and biases within the healthcare system contribute to higher rates of chronic illnesses, poorer health outcomes, and shorter life expectancies among URMs. These disparities exacerbate the existing social and economic challenges faced by URMs and perpetuate a cycle of disadvantage.

Criminal Justice System:
The criminal justice system often serves as another arena where systemic racism thrives. The over-policing and disproportionate targeting of URMs perpetuate a narrative of criminality that leads to higher rates of arrests, convictions, and harsher sentencing compared to non-URMs. The presence of biased practices, racial profiling, and systemic discrimination within law enforcement agencies contributes to the marginalization of URMs and perpetuates a cycle of mass incarceration that disproportionately affects these communities.

Conclusion:
Although this essay explores the disparate impact of systemic racism on my life as an URM, the experiences highlighted here are emblematic of the broader struggles faced by many marginalized communities. It is crucial to recognize that systemic racism affects individuals in multifaceted ways, permeating various aspects of life, including education, employment, healthcare, and the criminal justice system. By acknowledging and addressing these disparities, society can take steps toward building a more equitable future, one that recognizes the intrinsic value of all individuals, irrespective of their racial or ethnic background. Only through collective efforts to dismantle systemic racism can we hope to create a society that upholds the principles of justice, fairness, and equal opportunity for all.
[/End AI]

T10, here I come!
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm looking at Brookings also. They reported around 2300 black students scored over 1500.

That is not many.

But hypothetically speaking if the t20 were to divvy them evenly up that would be more than 100 per freshman class.

All of this is just to say that these students exist and belong at t20 schools along with their academic peers.


SAT is pretty much irrelevant, BUT, 1400-1450 combined with ECs, essays, recs can seal the deal.

Better than most ALDCs, so don't hate on URMs. Very much qualified. Thanks.

Exactly. Based on the latest data published by the College Board (the organization that administers the SAT) 10,000 URM students scored in the top percentiles (1400-1600) on the SAT.

https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf

1400 is very different than 1500 (or 1600).

Even so, 1% African American scored in that band; Hispanic 2%. Asian Am. 27%.

And let's remember that the Harvard case showed that Asian Am. had high marks for extra curricular activities, and leadership.

You are simply wrong. 1400 is 97th percentile. Get your facts straight.


97th percentiles will have trouble keeping up with the 99th percentiles at ivies. In anything that's more complicated than micky mouse courses, they will have trouble keeping up with their 99th classmates. Read Thomas Sowell about his experience in teaching the 97th vs 99th at Cornell.


Yawn.

Thomas Sowell?!?

He's a conservative goober. Next you'll name drop John McWhorter. Or Clarence Thomas himself.

No thanks.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Students are allowed to say whatever they want to say in an essay. As far as I know, schools are fully entitled to ask applicants to voluntarily identify their race. Schools will easily—and appropriately—be able to give URMs a boost, if necessary. The decision provides a road map for colleges to follow. As a practical matter, little will change.


You have not been following what has transpired in states that implemented this policy. Bottom line is Black admits will sharply decline and Asian admits will increase.


I know people like to point to California here, but there are some key differences. The first is that California has many many more Asian American residents than most of the rest of the country, so the numbers will look different for in-state schools no matter what. The second is that the California figures look at the entire state, across all UC and Cal State systems. For a variety of reasons, including systemic racism, there may not be enough "highly qualified" URMs for admissions to match demographics for Black and Latino applicants.

But this conversation is about "elite colleges," which we can assume means T25, and some of which are very small at the undergraduate level. If a college decides racial diversity, and avoiding a substantial drop in Black and Latino candidates, is important to them, there are absolutely enough "highly qualified" URMs to make sure that happens.


+1


Everyone is forgetting that, once admitted, students also need to pay for college. The reason so many qualified affluent students are accepted is because they can PAY tuition.
Colleges need revenue.
URM students, even if brilliant and plentiful, need to be full pay. Top colleges are generous but that’s only bc they admit students who can offset the loss.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The S Ct decision states any URM who discusses race in essays would need to tie it to some actual impact in life, but wouldn’t Admissions Officers still pick up on clues in the application, such as a mention of parents Heritage or clubs or awards that signal URM representation. It would not help applicants at the lower end of recent admits (25th percentile), but would it not favor applicants at say the 50th percentile. If I were an AO I would want to lock in those URMs to avoid a steep decline in URMs.

Admissions essays will be read by LLM AI such as GPT-4 sooner than 3 years from now, which will have no trouble whatsoever reading millions of essays and classifying them based on clues. Current publicly accessible models are muzzled though but the ones soon in use won't be.

In fact, ChatGPT might write the essays themselves:

[Begin AI]
User
Write an essay about the disparate impact of systemic racism on my life as an URM. Do not reveal that I am black.

ChatGPT
Title: The Disparate Impact of Systemic Racism: My Personal Journey

Introduction:
In a society built on the principles of equality and justice, it is disheartening to acknowledge the persistent presence of systemic racism. Throughout history, marginalized communities have faced significant challenges due to discrimination and unequal treatment. This essay sheds light on the disparate impact of systemic racism on my life as an underrepresented minority (URM), while maintaining the confidentiality of my specific racial identity. By sharing personal experiences and observations, this narrative aims to contribute to a broader understanding of the multifaceted effects of racism.

Educational Opportunities:
One of the most pervasive ways systemic racism impacts my life is in the realm of educational opportunities. As a URM, I have witnessed and experienced disparities in access to quality education, resources, and opportunities compared to my non-URM peers. The historical legacy of discriminatory policies and practices has resulted in segregated schools, limited funding for schools in marginalized communities, and the perpetuation of stereotypes that hinder academic progress. These factors have made it more challenging for URMs to excel academically and gain equal footing in higher education, perpetuating a cycle of limited opportunities.

Economic Disadvantages:
Systemic racism also manifests itself in economic disparities. Limited access to quality education often translates into diminished employment prospects for URMs, leading to lower wages and limited upward mobility. Discrimination in hiring and promotion practices further compounds the challenges faced by URMs in the workforce. The persistent wealth gap between URMs and their non-URM counterparts can be traced back to historical injustices such as redlining, unequal access to loans, and the denial of homeownership opportunities. These economic disadvantages have long-lasting effects on individual and generational prosperity, creating a cycle that is difficult to break.

Healthcare Inequities:
The impact of systemic racism extends into the realm of healthcare, where URMs face significant disparities in access to quality care and health outcomes. Discriminatory practices, both implicit and explicit, lead to unequal treatment and medical neglect. Limited access to affordable healthcare, lack of health insurance, and biases within the healthcare system contribute to higher rates of chronic illnesses, poorer health outcomes, and shorter life expectancies among URMs. These disparities exacerbate the existing social and economic challenges faced by URMs and perpetuate a cycle of disadvantage.

Criminal Justice System:
The criminal justice system often serves as another arena where systemic racism thrives. The over-policing and disproportionate targeting of URMs perpetuate a narrative of criminality that leads to higher rates of arrests, convictions, and harsher sentencing compared to non-URMs. The presence of biased practices, racial profiling, and systemic discrimination within law enforcement agencies contributes to the marginalization of URMs and perpetuates a cycle of mass incarceration that disproportionately affects these communities.

Conclusion:
Although this essay explores the disparate impact of systemic racism on my life as an URM, the experiences highlighted here are emblematic of the broader struggles faced by many marginalized communities. It is crucial to recognize that systemic racism affects individuals in multifaceted ways, permeating various aspects of life, including education, employment, healthcare, and the criminal justice system. By acknowledging and addressing these disparities, society can take steps toward building a more equitable future, one that recognizes the intrinsic value of all individuals, irrespective of their racial or ethnic background. Only through collective efforts to dismantle systemic racism can we hope to create a society that upholds the principles of justice, fairness, and equal opportunity for all.
[/End AI]

T10, here I come!


I read admissions applications, and this essay is trash. No T10 for you.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Students are allowed to say whatever they want to say in an essay. As far as I know, schools are fully entitled to ask applicants to voluntarily identify their race. Schools will easily—and appropriately—be able to give URMs a boost, if necessary. The decision provides a road map for colleges to follow. As a practical matter, little will change.


You have not been following what has transpired in states that implemented this policy. Bottom line is Black admits will sharply decline and Asian admits will increase.


I know people like to point to California here, but there are some key differences. The first is that California has many many more Asian American residents than most of the rest of the country, so the numbers will look different for in-state schools no matter what. The second is that the California figures look at the entire state, across all UC and Cal State systems. For a variety of reasons, including systemic racism, there may not be enough "highly qualified" URMs for admissions to match demographics for Black and Latino applicants.

But this conversation is about "elite colleges," which we can assume means T25, and some of which are very small at the undergraduate level. If a college decides racial diversity, and avoiding a substantial drop in Black and Latino candidates, is important to them, there are absolutely enough "highly qualified" URMs to make sure that happens.


+1


Everyone is forgetting that, once admitted, students also need to pay for college. The reason so many qualified affluent students are accepted is because they can PAY tuition.
Colleges need revenue.
URM students, even if brilliant and plentiful, need to be full pay. Top colleges are generous but that’s only bc they admit students who can offset the loss.


Even now, it's the affluent African and Caribbean students who fill the URM slots at top schools. The news of full-ride inner city kids are news cuz there are so few of those tokens. They don't happen that often.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Students are allowed to say whatever they want to say in an essay. As far as I know, schools are fully entitled to ask applicants to voluntarily identify their race. Schools will easily—and appropriately—be able to give URMs a boost, if necessary. The decision provides a road map for colleges to follow. As a practical matter, little will change.


You have not been following what has transpired in states that implemented this policy. Bottom line is Black admits will sharply decline and Asian admits will increase.


I know people like to point to California here, but there are some key differences. The first is that California has many many more Asian American residents than most of the rest of the country, so the numbers will look different for in-state schools no matter what. The second is that the California figures look at the entire state, across all UC and Cal State systems. For a variety of reasons, including systemic racism, there may not be enough "highly qualified" URMs for admissions to match demographics for Black and Latino applicants.

But this conversation is about "elite colleges," which we can assume means T25, and some of which are very small at the undergraduate level. If a college decides racial diversity, and avoiding a substantial drop in Black and Latino candidates, is important to them, there are absolutely enough "highly qualified" URMs to make sure that happens.


+1


Everyone is forgetting that, once admitted, students also need to pay for college. The reason so many qualified affluent students are accepted is because they can PAY tuition.
Colleges need revenue.
URM students, even if brilliant and plentiful, need to be full pay. Top colleges are generous but that’s only bc they admit students who can offset the loss.


15% of Harvard's students have figured out how to afford it

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/

Gaps in wealth between Black and white households reveal the effects of accumulated inequality and discrimination, as well as differences in power and opportunity that can be traced back to this nation’s inception.

Efforts by Black Americans to build wealth can be traced back throughout American history. But these efforts have been impeded in a host of ways, beginning with 246 years of chattel slavery and followed by Congressional mismanagement of the Freedman’s Savings Bank (which left 61,144 depositors with losses of nearly $3 million in 1874), the violent massacre decimating Tulsa’s Greenwood District in 1921 (a population of 10,000 that thrived as the epicenter of African American business and culture, commonly referred to as “Black Wall Street”), and discriminatory policies throughout the 20th century including the Jim Crow Era’s “Black Codes” strictly limiting opportunity in many southern states, the GI bill, the New Deal’s Fair Labor Standards Act’s exemption of domestic agricultural and service occupations, and redlining. Wealth was taken from these communities before it had the opportunity to grow.

All this impacts higher education, but this conservative SC says everything is fine so we will just have to wait to see what happens.
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