Disclosing atheism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Is questioning the validity of the belief or asking for evidence of it an "insult"?

And comparing your god to other gods neither of us believe in - is that an "insult"?

Those are two questions and I genuinely would like them answered.

Still hoping for a response here.

It is insulting to jump to the Santa/Easter bunny when discussing religious belief without recognizing how very different a childish belief is from a person’s faith. It is insulting to continue to ask for evidence when faith has already been given as the answer. It is not insulting to discuss religions with the accepted premise that one believes based on faith and one disbelieves based on lack of evidence.

DP - thanks for this response. How is a childish belief, as you call it, in Santa, different from reigious faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see the atheists here trying to genuinely engage with the mission of Christians.

What is "the mission"?

+1 also, do you expect people of other religions to engage with the Christian "mission"?

The mission of Christianity is to spread the good news. Did you go to Sunday school? It is fundamental to the very essence of Christianity. World history has been shaped by this mission. To ignore this fact is to to ignore reality. It is what it is. To genuinely engage in discussion with Christians is to accept what they have been taught over and over again throughout time. You cannot genuinely engage with a Christian in debate if you ignore this about them. No matter how frustrating it is.

Sorry, but I can't really believe that Christians expect people of other religions and no religion to engage with them if it only can mean becoming a Christian. Seems to me that in the US people are taught to respect other religions but not taught to expect others to convert to their religion. Slowly, that respect is being extending to people who do not practice any religion.

We might be arguing past each other. I am talking about those who wish to not insult Christians. You would start by respecting what they believe, nothing more. And I didn’t say that Christians “expect” others to concert.

Are you saying that "spreading the good news" is not related to people who are not Christians becoming Christians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

No - I don't have an explanation for the creation of the Universe. It's something that hasn't been figured out yet. I also have no reason to think that someday it will be figured out scientifically, like everything else so far that people have figured out. The answer has never been "God did it." That's only the answer some people have when there is not yet a scientific solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Is questioning the validity of the belief or asking for evidence of it an "insult"?

And comparing your god to other gods neither of us believe in - is that an "insult"?

Those are two questions and I genuinely would like them answered.

Still hoping for a response here.

It is insulting to jump to the Santa/Easter bunny when discussing religious belief without recognizing how very different a childish belief is from a person’s faith. It is insulting to continue to ask for evidence when faith has already been given as the answer. It is not insulting to discuss religions with the accepted premise that one believes based on faith and one disbelieves based on lack of evidence.

DP - thanks for this response. How is a childish belief, as you call it, in Santa, different from reigious faith?

This is an insulting question because you have already presumed that believing in Santa is the same as believing in god. Many many people do not agree with you about that. Those billions of people throughout time have their reasons that I alone cannot explain but they have been documented. I am only suggesting how not to be insulting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see the atheists here trying to genuinely engage with the mission of Christians.

What is "the mission"?

+1 also, do you expect people of other religions to engage with the Christian "mission"?

The mission of Christianity is to spread the good news. Did you go to Sunday school? It is fundamental to the very essence of Christianity. World history has been shaped by this mission. To ignore this fact is to to ignore reality. It is what it is. To genuinely engage in discussion with Christians is to accept what they have been taught over and over again throughout time. You cannot genuinely engage with a Christian in debate if you ignore this about them. No matter how frustrating it is.

Sorry, but I can't really believe that Christians expect people of other religions and no religion to engage with them if it only can mean becoming a Christian. Seems to me that in the US people are taught to respect other religions but not taught to expect others to convert to their religion. Slowly, that respect is being extending to people who do not practice any religion.

We might be arguing past each other. I am talking about those who wish to not insult Christians. You would start by respecting what they believe, nothing more. And I didn’t say that Christians “expect” others to concert.

Are you saying that "spreading the good news" is not related to people who are not Christians becoming Christians?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that is where they are coming from if you would like to understand them so as not to insult them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

NP. I disagree with the bolded and find the cosmological arguments convincing, but this is why the "Santa Claus" claims are wrong. There's no serious philosophical defense of the existence of Santa. There is for God, even if you don't find the arguments convincing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

NP. I disagree with the bolded and find the cosmological arguments convincing, but this is why the "Santa Claus" claims are wrong. There's no serious philosophical defense of the existence of Santa. There is for God, even if you don't find the arguments convincing.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

“Like first frame of a film nothing before it “.
I am saying their is a Creator of the film.
You are saying the film just happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

“Like first frame of a film nothing before it “.
I am saying their is a Creator of the film.
You are saying the film just happened.

DP - I am not saying that "the film (universe) just happened." I am saying that we haven't figured out yet what happened. In contrast, religious people are making up an answer - God did it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

NP. I disagree with the bolded and find the cosmological arguments convincing, but this is why the "Santa Claus" claims are wrong. There's no serious philosophical defense of the existence of Santa. There is for God, even if you don't find the arguments convincing.

Sounds like you are saying God is more believable than Santa because serious philosophers have defended the reality of God. Is that right?

Would you also agree that both God and Santa are beliefs for which there is no scientific evidence?

[Anonymous]

It was fine. I'm a Christian and would take no offense if you said this to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see the atheists here trying to genuinely engage with the mission of Christians.

What is "the mission"?

+1 also, do you expect people of other religions to engage with the Christian "mission"?

The mission of Christianity is to spread the good news. Did you go to Sunday school? It is fundamental to the very essence of Christianity. World history has been shaped by this mission. To ignore this fact is to to ignore reality. It is what it is. To genuinely engage in discussion with Christians is to accept what they have been taught over and over again throughout time. You cannot genuinely engage with a Christian in debate if you ignore this about them. No matter how frustrating it is.

Sorry, but I can't really believe that Christians expect people of other religions and no religion to engage with them if it only can mean becoming a Christian. Seems to me that in the US people are taught to respect other religions but not taught to expect others to convert to their religion. Slowly, that respect is being extending to people who do not practice any religion.

We might be arguing past each other. I am talking about those who wish to not insult Christians. You would start by respecting what they believe, nothing more. And I didn’t say that Christians “expect” others to concert.

Are you saying that "spreading the good news" is not related to people who are not Christians becoming Christians?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that is where they are coming from if you would like to understand them so as not to insult them.

I think I understand - you are saying Christians (I used to be one) believe they are doing something good and others who don't share that belief should not express it, to avoid insulting Christians. Is that right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t see the atheists here trying to genuinely engage with the mission of Christians.

What is "the mission"?

+1 also, do you expect people of other religions to engage with the Christian "mission"?

The mission of Christianity is to spread the good news. Did you go to Sunday school? It is fundamental to the very essence of Christianity. World history has been shaped by this mission. To ignore this fact is to to ignore reality. It is what it is. To genuinely engage in discussion with Christians is to accept what they have been taught over and over again throughout time. You cannot genuinely engage with a Christian in debate if you ignore this about them. No matter how frustrating it is.

Sorry, but I can't really believe that Christians expect people of other religions and no religion to engage with them if it only can mean becoming a Christian. Seems to me that in the US people are taught to respect other religions but not taught to expect others to convert to their religion. Slowly, that respect is being extending to people who do not practice any religion.

We might be arguing past each other. I am talking about those who wish to not insult Christians. You would start by respecting what they believe, nothing more. And I didn’t say that Christians “expect” others to concert.

Are you saying that "spreading the good news" is not related to people who are not Christians becoming Christians?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that is where they are coming from if you would like to understand them so as not to insult them.

I think I understand - you are saying Christians (I used to be one) believe they are doing something good and others who don't share that belief should not express it, to avoid insulting Christians. Is that right?

Not quite. In OP’s situation, I would’ve answered the question the neighbor asked. “What church do you go to?” “Oh, I don’t go to church.” And then see what the neighbor says. Perhaps the neighbor lets it drop because the conversation was getting too personal for that particular social gathering. If the neighbor pushed it, then I would disclose that I was atheist. The neighbor should then respectfully engage in normal conversation and not pass judgment, just as the atheist did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To genuinely engage with Christian’s is to accept that faith is a reliable source of truth to them without resorting to insults

Seems like Christians who really believed in their faith would not be insulted by accurate comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny. All three are believed by children, correct? Only adults are encouraged to believe in God, correct?

Clearly God, does much more than the other two, and there are whole, and numerous, belief structures built around God, but they are all supernatural and it requires faith to believe in them.

I can see how some people would be swayed by the similarities among these beings, but if your faith is strong, no problem. You can reject what you no longer believe in and continue believing in what you want to.

DP
The universe began from nothingness, something came from nothing or any explanation you have is as much faith as my belief in a Creator.

First that is not what Atheists believe. Atheists have a stand on a single proposition: whether or not to believe in a god. There is no atheist position on the creation of the universe.

As for your cosmological inquiry, the answer is we don't know what happened before the big bang, or even if there was a before the big bang (there is no evidence of it). It's possible time began with the big bang, like the first frame of a piece of film, with nothing before it. But we don't know, which is a position that does not require ANY faith.

And your definition of "from nothing" makes "nothing" logically impossible as it defines "nothing" making it something. Hard to wrap your mind around, but that is what you are doing.

And on top of that, any demands you put on the creation of the universe also need to apply to any creator, and there is infinite regress... it's also a presuppositional fallacy...

...so you see why cosmological arguments for god are highly flawed.

“Like first frame of a film nothing before it “.
I am saying their is a Creator of the film.
You are saying the film just happened.

Again you miss the point. Several of them actually.

Number one: atheism says nothing about the creation of the universe, despite your attempts to claim it does.

Number two: there is no evidence there was a before the big bang. Maybe the big bang always was. I understand this is a difficult concept. I certainly don’t claim to be an expert in it, which is why I am fine saying “I don’t know“.

And you are saying the creator just happened. So if the creator just happened, why can’t the universe just happen?