MCPS Teachers Quitting? Who is replacing them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can imagine many of the less popular AP classes moving to virtual. That would free up staff for other courses. Expect more full time subs in schools. I don’t foresee large scale lecture style courses for a variety of reasons. Perhaps fewer special programs since those staff might be needed for core classes.

In my 11th grade elective I have two separate courses together. I switch back and forth between groups depending on which one needs more direct instruction or supervision. I have structured the courses so that they could be entirely done online since this was almost a necessity last year with so many kids out.

This is depressing. Truly.

…”depending who needs instruction or supervision…”

In private school as well as in college, the entire class session requires actual instruction.

We’ve devolved to a place where teachers barely instruct and far too much time is spent on independent work. No wonder kids are checked out.

In private school and college they control for the number of students in the institution. Additionally, in college there are frequently large classes. The professor/teacher instructs and there is little attention given to whether the students are actually understanding. If they don’t understand that’s what office hours, study groups, and tutors are for, so still lots of independent learning.

Sure.

But what I’m seeing in mcps is very limited instruction followed by a lot of independent work. That’s not the norm in private schools. Why is it the norm in public? Primarily because teachers are expected to magically teach at multiple levels. And this thread has opened my eyes to teachers simultaneously teaching entirely different courses. What nonsense!

Class size must be limited.

Kids must receive direct instruction at their level—not get a quick overview and then work independently for 30 minutes, and not “learn” via Chromebook assignments during class time.

Perhaps the influx in students is negatively impacting classroom instruction and outcomes? Any truth to that? If so, is anyone willing to say that out loud?

Let’s do a test- How would you limit class sizes?

20 kids for K and 1st

No more than 24 for 2nd through 5th

No more than 26 for middle school and high school

Invest in more trade school opportunities for HS students. Similarly invest in more tech training/coding, etc. so students could be job ready upon graduation or can easily transition to specialty education at Montgomery College.

The numbers in many schools are admittedly problematic. I’m all for increasing taxes as long as the money goes to desperately needed improvements to mcps academics. I think teachers should be paid more so we can attract and retain highly qualified educators.

[Anonymous]

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/pelp/files/pel028p2.pdf

Are most posters new to the area? Young parents?

The Harvard link discusses the shifting demographics in mcps…and it’s from nearly 20 years ago. If you compare those numbers to the current mcps demographics, you’ll see the continued and rapid shift.

The report praises success with improved educational outcomes despite the demographics. This was under Jerry Weast at a time when mcps was nationally recognized and parents pulled their kids from private school to benefit from mcps.

Read the report then google current demographics, budget issues, teacher retention, etc. and then report back.

If you think only a right wing parent would be concerned with the current issues facing mcps then I think you are uninformed and naive. I’m as liberal as they come as are my friends and family who teach in mcps and send their kids to mcps schools. FTR, we aren’t in a W school or magnet program. If your kids are segregated in a bubble and benefit from a completely different system, good for you. But the rest of us are experiencing something different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty ridiculous that a police recruit with an associate's degree makes more than an entry-level teacher with a master's degree.

Well, if you look at $/hour, they don't. Teachers work around 180 days per year at most, and many take a lot of personal leave, which reduces that number further.

Yes they do. Police get overtime pay, and teachers do not. Your logic only makes sense if you assume teachers only work during the hours they are contracted for.

Their logic makes perfect sense. Further, my kid's teacher doesn't even do that. They refuse to grade papers and spend most of the day looking at Instagram.

Liar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty ridiculous that a police recruit with an associate's degree makes more than an entry-level teacher with a master's degree.

The jobs may both be stressful, but police risk their lives. I know teachers are subject to abuse, but day to day there is no comparison with the risks police offers take.

Oops, you drank the Kool-Aid. More food delivery drivers die on the job each year than cops.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid has had a long term sub the entire year so far in physics.
The school has not been able to find anyone

This is going to become a huge problem.

We can’t find teachers at our school willing to take on AP classes. When everybody is already swamped and exhausted, who will agree to piling on that much more work? Strong teachers used to campaign for those classes. Not anymore.

Not really. No reason to believe it's different than it was in prior years.

ROFL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the poster who said the starting salary should be $70k, I would be fine with that.

But I will point out that starting salaries for new lawyers fresh out of law school at Legal Aid in Montgomery County is $66k. Seems like $65k would be good for a 10 month job for a teacher fresh out of college.

You are not seriously trying to suggest that nonprofit salaries are appropriate for teachers? Those jobs are for trust fund babies and people who didn't get the message they are for trust fund babies. We need a real supply of good teachers.

One might say that teaching is now for trust fund babies or those who marry well too. Why do you think the county cannot fill so many positions any more and those positions go unfilled too.

I was in one of those jobs. After child care, it didn't pay for me to work, especially given the hours and I needed to pay a babysitter to get my kids from day care as I never made it home before 7.

Exactly. There are not enough trust fund babies to fill teaching positions. It's not appropriate and not decent to pay under $70k for a job that requires a master's degree in the DMV.

My neighbor who teaches at MCPS makes 120k. I think that's not bad for someone who likely only works around 160 days a year, and with the Elrich tax increases it should be a lot more soon.

I really can't with someone who thinks $120k is too much for someone with a master's degree + additional continuing education and 25 years+ of experience. Who is responsible for children's futures. You sound really out of touch with professional salaries in this day and age.

+1
I just checked the pay scale. The top is $118K and that’s for a Masters + 60 credits after 25 years of experience. The PP above really thinks $120K is too much for a teacher with those credentials?

I think it's fine for someone who works for roughly 75% of the year and has degrees in subject areas like medieval history or fine arts.

You are missing the point. It’s not specifically about how much any given teacher is making. It’s that many teachers for their credentials can find other jobs that are either less stress/hours for the same pay, or more pay for the same hours. Education as a whole will either need to pay more competitive salaries or accept less qualified employees. Welcome to capitalism and a tight labor market.

They should do whatever they believe is best for them. Personally, I loved school, and have often wondered about that road not taken and what might've been...

You think you could have been a successful teacher under current conditions because you “loved school.” JFC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not in MCPS, but I'm a teacher who quit. I was extremely successful and every single year my students made about a year and a half worth of growth. I was definitely underpaid, results or not. But, I was so demoralized when I left that it's really difficult to come up with a number that might have gotten me to stay. The entire education system has to change.

And I truly believe that in the next 5-10 years, schools won't be able to remain open. I think it is extremely realistic to imagine parents will be getting robo calls on Sunday nights to learn their school won't be able to open that week because there isn't staff to open safely. I think it's realistic to think that high schools won't be able to offer ANY clubs, sports, AP classes, etc, and that academic classes will have 80-200 kids in them, lecture style. I suspect online learning will be the norm for people who can afford a sahp and internet and everyone else will be screwed. I think buildings are going to close, most of the education programs in universities will close (the ones that haven't already). I think students with special needs won't be getting any services. The system is crumbling and is far worse than any parent I know realizes.

This is actually a good thing. Give families the money and the market will educate. New Americans already do this with cram schools - Kumon, mathnasium. In MCPS this is where real education happens anyways. Let’s cut out the middleman. Product of Buffalo public schools and taught kids/used cram schools during pandemic But realize places like MCPS need to close. So much better than public school. RIP.

No, sorry, Right Winger. You want private school or Christian “school,” you pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not in MCPS, but I'm a teacher who quit. I was extremely successful and every single year my students made about a year and a half worth of growth. I was definitely underpaid, results or not. But, I was so demoralized when I left that it's really difficult to come up with a number that might have gotten me to stay. The entire education system has to change.

And I truly believe that in the next 5-10 years, schools won't be able to remain open. I think it is extremely realistic to imagine parents will be getting robo calls on Sunday nights to learn their school won't be able to open that week because there isn't staff to open safely. I think it's realistic to think that high schools won't be able to offer ANY clubs, sports, AP classes, etc, and that academic classes will have 80-200 kids in them, lecture style. I suspect online learning will be the norm for people who can afford a sahp and internet and everyone else will be screwed. I think buildings are going to close, most of the education programs in universities will close (the ones that haven't already). I think students with special needs won't be getting any services. The system is crumbling and is far worse than any parent I know realizes.

This is actually a good thing. Give families the money and the market will educate. New Americans already do this with cram schools - Kumon, mathnasium. In MCPS this is where real education happens anyways. Let’s cut out the middleman. Product of Buffalo public schools and taught kids/used cram schools during pandemic But realize places like MCPS need to close. So much better than public school. RIP.

Public school in the US is kind of a disaster. I'd like to see some school choice in Montgomery County, but our political leaders would fight that tooth and nail.

At the very least, let students opt of of classes if they can demonstrate proficiency. If my kid can pass an Algebra test (because she's learned Algebra elsewhere), don't make her take it again with the crappy MCPS version. If my kid speaks Spanish and can pass the AP Spanish test, let her opt out of the language requirement.

This would require a huge overhaul of public education and I don't see the political will until things get as bad as what the PP is describing and the entire system just 'crumbles'.

And here it is the culmination of twisting and spitting facts all along to present their agenda. We get it. You resent paying taxes to support public schools and want to get them. Thanks but no thanks.

No. I resent throwing more money at a corrupt and dysfunctional public school system.

Either clean up and fix the broken system or give parents an alternative.

You have alternatives. Homeschool or pay for private. If homeschooling means you need childcare, hire it. Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not in MCPS, but I'm a teacher who quit. I was extremely successful and every single year my students made about a year and a half worth of growth. I was definitely underpaid, results or not. But, I was so demoralized when I left that it's really difficult to come up with a number that might have gotten me to stay. The entire education system has to change.

And I truly believe that in the next 5-10 years, schools won't be able to remain open. I think it is extremely realistic to imagine parents will be getting robo calls on Sunday nights to learn their school won't be able to open that week because there isn't staff to open safely. I think it's realistic to think that high schools won't be able to offer ANY clubs, sports, AP classes, etc, and that academic classes will have 80-200 kids in them, lecture style. I suspect online learning will be the norm for people who can afford a sahp and internet and everyone else will be screwed. I think buildings are going to close, most of the education programs in universities will close (the ones that haven't already). I think students with special needs won't be getting any services. The system is crumbling and is far worse than any parent I know realizes.

This is actually a good thing. Give families the money and the market will educate. New Americans already do this with cram schools - Kumon, mathnasium. In MCPS this is where real education happens anyways. Let’s cut out the middleman. Product of Buffalo public schools and taught kids/used cram schools during pandemic But realize places like MCPS need to close. So much better than public school. RIP.

Public school in the US is kind of a disaster. I'd like to see some school choice in Montgomery County, but our political leaders would fight that tooth and nail.

At the very least, let students opt of of classes if they can demonstrate proficiency. If my kid can pass an Algebra test (because she's learned Algebra elsewhere), don't make her take it again with the crappy MCPS version. If my kid speaks Spanish and can pass the AP Spanish test, let her opt out of the language requirement.

This would require a huge overhaul of public education and I don't see the political will until things get as bad as what the PP is describing and the entire system just 'crumbles'.

Those are state requirements that MCPS cannot eliminate. One of my rising seniors is finishing AP Calc and already enrolled in a college math course, but the state requires her to take a fourth year of math in HS. It’s silly, but not the fault of MCPS.

I recognize that. I think we really do need an overhaul of the public education system in this country. It’s just not working for most kids.

In a couple of years I'm hoping ChatGPT will have evolved to where it can address the teacher shortage.

I’d love to see how ChatGPT will teach (and discipline) a classroom full of disinterested, disruptive teenagers.

Couldn't be any worse than it is now...

You’re either being disingenuous or you’re just profoundly dim. Maybe both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can imagine many of the less popular AP classes moving to virtual. That would free up staff for other courses. Expect more full time subs in schools. I don’t foresee large scale lecture style courses for a variety of reasons. Perhaps fewer special programs since those staff might be needed for core classes.

In my 11th grade elective I have two separate courses together. I switch back and forth between groups depending on which one needs more direct instruction or supervision. I have structured the courses so that they could be entirely done online since this was almost a necessity last year with so many kids out.

This is depressing. Truly.

…”depending who needs instruction or supervision…”

In private school as well as in college, the entire class session requires actual instruction.

We’ve devolved to a place where teachers barely instruct and far too much time is spent on independent work. No wonder kids are checked out.

Then, go to private. This is what MCPS offers. Take it or leave it.

While I get that many people aren’t equipped to effect change, I hope people will launch a mutiny that fuels change. Ymmv.

Mmkay. Well, I hope I get a pony.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can imagine many of the less popular AP classes moving to virtual. That would free up staff for other courses. Expect more full time subs in schools. I don’t foresee large scale lecture style courses for a variety of reasons. Perhaps fewer special programs since those staff might be needed for core classes.

In my 11th grade elective I have two separate courses together. I switch back and forth between groups depending on which one needs more direct instruction or supervision. I have structured the courses so that they could be entirely done online since this was almost a necessity last year with so many kids out.

This is depressing. Truly.

…”depending who needs instruction or supervision…”

In private school as well as in college, the entire class session requires actual instruction.

We’ve devolved to a place where teachers barely instruct and far too much time is spent on independent work. No wonder kids are checked out.

In private school and college they control for the number of students in the institution. Additionally, in college there are frequently large classes. The professor/teacher instructs and there is little attention given to whether the students are actually understanding. If they don’t understand that’s what office hours, study groups, and tutors are for, so still lots of independent learning.

Sure.

But what I’m seeing in mcps is very limited instruction followed by a lot of independent work. That’s not the norm in private schools. Why is it the norm in public? Primarily because teachers are expected to magically teach at multiple levels. And this thread has opened my eyes to teachers simultaneously teaching entirely different courses. What nonsense!

Class size must be limited.

Kids must receive direct instruction at their level—not get a quick overview and then work independently for 30 minutes, and not “learn” via Chromebook assignments during class time.

Perhaps the influx in students is negatively impacting classroom instruction and outcomes? Any truth to that? If so, is anyone willing to say that out loud?

Let’s do a test- How would you limit class sizes?

Any post that contains phrases like "I'm a lifelong Democrat BUT.." and goes on to present Fox News talking points is suspect.

Yeah, it’s a load of crap: “I voted for Biden, but…”

Yeah, the hell you did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can imagine many of the less popular AP classes moving to virtual. That would free up staff for other courses. Expect more full time subs in schools. I don’t foresee large scale lecture style courses for a variety of reasons. Perhaps fewer special programs since those staff might be needed for core classes.

In my 11th grade elective I have two separate courses together. I switch back and forth between groups depending on which one needs more direct instruction or supervision. I have structured the courses so that they could be entirely done online since this was almost a necessity last year with so many kids out.

This is depressing. Truly.

…”depending who needs instruction or supervision…”

In private school as well as in college, the entire class session requires actual instruction.

We’ve devolved to a place where teachers barely instruct and far too much time is spent on independent work. No wonder kids are checked out.

In private school and college they control for the number of students in the institution. Additionally, in college there are frequently large classes. The professor/teacher instructs and there is little attention given to whether the students are actually understanding. If they don’t understand that’s what office hours, study groups, and tutors are for, so still lots of independent learning.

Sure.

But what I’m seeing in mcps is very limited instruction followed by a lot of independent work. That’s not the norm in private schools. Why is it the norm in public? Primarily because teachers are expected to magically teach at multiple levels. And this thread has opened my eyes to teachers simultaneously teaching entirely different courses. What nonsense!

Class size must be limited.

Kids must receive direct instruction at their level—not get a quick overview and then work independently for 30 minutes, and not “learn” via Chromebook assignments during class time.

Perhaps the influx in students is negatively impacting classroom instruction and outcomes? Any truth to that? If so, is anyone willing to say that out loud?

Let’s do a test- How would you limit class sizes?

Any post that contains phrases like "I'm a lifelong Democrat BUT.." and goes on to present Fox News talking points is suspect.

Yeah, it’s a load of crap: “I voted for Biden, but…”

Yeah, the hell you did.

Can you please explain why you think a lifelong Dem who voted for Biden wouldn’t recognize the issues facing mcps as reported by teachers, parents, the school system, researchers, etc. supported by data? I mean, I feel like as a rule Dems tend to be well-educated people who pay attention.

[Anonymous]

I am an mcps educator and send my kids to mcps public schools. What I am seeing is disheartening. Teachers are at their breaking point; the behaviors and needs of the kids are unbelievable; Many are quitting even after many years of service; We are hiring whoever we can get- probably subpar people because at this point we need warm bodies; The education is suffering- I see teachers playing a YouTube video of a book read aloud instead of reading the book themselves; Gym and art teachers running their class with videos instead of good direct instruction- I guess they are tired and this isn't forbidden; I work with my own kids on basic facts because I don't trust the system to do a good job. Too many needy kids, burnt out teachers, poor instructional approaches, a growing lack of resources...the list goes on anc on; I truly believe mcps is sinking ship and will continue to decline year over year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am an mcps educator and send my kids to mcps public schools. What I am seeing is disheartening. Teachers are at their breaking point; the behaviors and needs of the kids are unbelievable; Many are quitting even after many years of service; We are hiring whoever we can get- probably subpar people because at this point we need warm bodies; The education is suffering- I see teachers playing a YouTube video of a book read aloud instead of reading the book themselves; Gym and art teachers running their class with videos instead of good direct instruction- I guess they are tired and this isn't forbidden; I work with my own kids on basic facts because I don't trust the system to do a good job. Too many needy kids, burnt out teachers, poor instructional approaches, a growing lack of resources...the list goes on anc on; I truly believe mcps is sinking ship and will continue to decline year over year

Thank you for weighing in, Teacher. I believe you. Hopefully others won’t call you a Trumper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/pelp/files/pel028p2.pdf

Are most posters new to the area? Young parents?

The Harvard link discusses the shifting demographics in mcps…and it’s from nearly 20 years ago. If you compare those numbers to the current mcps demographics, you’ll see the continued and rapid shift.

The report praises success with improved educational outcomes despite the demographics. This was under Jerry Weast at a time when mcps was nationally recognized and parents pulled their kids from private school to benefit from mcps.

Read the report then google current demographics, budget issues, teacher retention, etc. and then report back.

If you think only a right wing parent would be concerned with the current issues facing mcps then I think you are uninformed and naive. I’m as liberal as they come as are my friends and family who teach in mcps and send their kids to mcps schools. FTR, we aren’t in a W school or magnet program. If your kids are segregated in a bubble and benefit from a completely different system, good for you. But the rest of us are experiencing something different.

I would argue that on an individual level the same things are true today as we're 20 years ago. I feel my kids are getting an excellent education from MCPS, but not everybody values the same things. Sure the county is different today. Nevertheless, a great education is available for anyone who wants it. The opportunities are still there.