Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Indigenous groups and land-back advocates believe so, and they will gather at the rock called Plymouth to demonstrate.

Should we at least change the name?

Let those grifters go live in some remote mountain the way their primitive ancestors did. There's plenty of land in the world -- who's stopping them?

You and your racist children are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:No. Screw off. We don’t care about your pet political causes and the gaping hole in your personality that causes you to promote this kind of stuff. Don’t care about about the claims and fairy wishes of indigenous groups or “land-back advocates”. We tolerate some of this crap in the name of good manners and being charitable. But there’s a limit.

It is a glorious day of national Thanksgiving. I am very grateful that European religious settlers founded the greatest civilization on earth, committed by its founding documents to ideals that were never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society.

And not for nothing, but if the North American indigenous peoples had had the ability to cross the Atlantic and the firepower, once there, to seize land and conform the local peoples to their customs, they would have done so without question. Many were very warlike and inclined toward expansion and capture on the continent. (As were most cultures of the era.) We just happen to be much more advanced and way better at war.

To the victor belongs the spoils.

Maybe tangential but what are these "ideals" that you say were never within the "founding spirit" of any society?

I don't think we need to ban Thanksgiving, but maybe we do need to do a WAY better job at education....

Can you name a single society with those ideals at it's core?

I asked you to name the ideals you are talking about. You didn't.

I'm also confused if these are the ideals of the Puritan religious separatists in Massachusetts Bay or the speculative capitalists who settled the Jamestown Colony? Or are we talking about the ideals of the Founding Fathers, who voted to codify the enslavement of human beings into the nation's founding documents (which was, I have to admit, a first among nations)?

Freedom and justice for all.

I'll aspire to these. You can aspire to whatever you please.

Assuming you are the first person I asked the question- it is your contention that the settlers from the 1620s held the same ideals as the framers 150 years later AND that these ideals of "freedom and justice" were "never, not once, within the founding spirit of any prior society"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Why did the US support England in WWII?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Not the PP you’re asking, but of course not. It’s a dumb question. I’m not sure humanity is “progressing” in a purely linear way toward being more just or generally “better” in a moral sense than we used to be. But big picture you can certainly make that argument.

Rights of women, minorities, disableds, etc across the board improved. Most countries and cultures are far more respectful of others—even absolute vitriolic racists and very bad people are a hell of a lot gentler than they used to be. And the vast majority of countries (excluding religious ethnostate autocracies) are downright kind. We spend trillions on welfare both inside and outside our own borders. We’ve developed laws and frameworks for protecting minority rights. Tech advances mean we’re not killing each other for things like water and food. Global capitalism is responsible for like 90% of this btw.

So yeah, the rules are different now. But we’re not going to launch into decades of global givesies backsies where everybody and their brother has a sob story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Not the PP you’re asking, but of course not. It’s a dumb question. I’m not sure humanity is “progressing” in a purely linear way toward being more just or generally “better” in a moral sense than we used to be. But big picture you can certainly make that argument.

Rights of women, minorities, disableds, etc across the board improved. Most countries and cultures are far more respectful of others—even absolute vitriolic racists and very bad people are a hell of a lot gentler than they used to be. And the vast majority of countries (excluding religious ethnostate autocracies) are downright kind. We spend trillions on welfare both inside and outside our own borders. We’ve developed laws and frameworks for protecting minority rights. Tech advances mean we’re not killing each other for things like water and food. Global capitalism is responsible for like 90% of this btw.

So yeah, the rules are different now. But we’re not going to launch into decades of global givesies backsies where everybody and their brother has a sob story.

The PP I was asking wrote "That's the way of the world". Present tense. That is why I was asking and why it is not a dumb question.

You are saying it was past tense, which is different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Not PP you’re asking but also no. Conquering other nations is generally difficult and not worth the high cost (look at US in Iraq/Afghanistan and Russia in Ukraine). We are also not running out of space or resources. For those resources that we are low on, it is more profitable to trade than to conquer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Indigenous groups and land-back advocates believe so, and they will gather at the rock called Plymouth to demonstrate.

Should we at least change the name?

No, there is nothing wrong, at all, with a day of gratitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Another attempt to ruin a holiday by shaming Americans.

Get your own holiday to cry over.

America does have a dark past. We should reflect on the massive human cost of building this country.

-Mayflower descendant

The funny thing is that the most obnoxious commenters on this topic likely arrived more than one hundred years after your family.

I arrived 44 years ago, almost to the day. What’s your point? I give two figs what some internet cosplay Mayflower descendant says? That entitles them to what, exactly, in terms of moral authority or understanding of the situation?

Best I can tell from your perspective an actual Mayflower descendant is up to their elbows in blood and owes all kinds of land and reparations. You should go over her house and take what you want from her garage. Leave me out of it. I’ll be sitting comfortably in my house with friends and family, drinking wine and watching football, thanking the good Lord I managed to navigate UMC American life without being indoctrinated to feel so much shame and joylessness about my country, culture, and self.

Enjoy your day of mourning.

None of what you’re enjoying would be possible without the genocide of indigenous people (and enslaved people). Pretty sh1tty you won’t even *acknowledge* that.

It’s not about shame, it’s about awareness and acknowledgement.

Let me say this clearly for the thick-headed and those in the back: We don’t care. Truly, we DO NOT CARE. Certainly not on Thanksgiving.

Every single country, culture, civilization, race, ethnicity, and every other category of human being you can come up with has a history of murder, rape, genocide, conquering, seizing land, expelling others, committing atrocities, rewriting history, and myth making its own origin story. Point me to a group that didn’t do this and I’ll extend the timeline and show you you’re full of sh&t. Africans did more enslaving and slave trading than white Europeans. Asians were annihilating cities and stacking skulls 50 feet high well before Columbus. The Japanese created hell for Chinese and Koreans across centuries of war. Both returned serve, and hey look over there the Chinese are doing it to the Uighurs in real time! Persians and Muslims, right this way! The havoc and terror brought on South America by the Conquistadors and other Euro settlers was catastrophic… unless you compare it to the torture and misery doled out routinely by the Aztecs before they got there.

Humanity has been rough business. Get over it.

This! Focus on treating people well in the here and now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fixating on just one narrow piece of anything—including history—misses the big picture.

Yes, the Europeans who settled coastal MA and the colonizers who followed ultimately fought over land.

But our American history also includes defeating the British crown and building a new country that established a democracy and rule of law never before seen.

^^^
That never would have happened had we stayed in Europe. And it’s kind of a big deal.

It obviously wasn’t all good.

Slavery and the related human rights abuses that came with it and the inequality that wasn’t addressed until the 1960s are shameful.

But things are getting better. They usually do if you study history rather than fixate and navel gaze.

The point is to NOT fixate on the manufactured story of “the pilgrims and the Indians”.

Listen to the other perspectives and experiences.

- and also to give the land back to its rightful owners.

Yay, whatever tribes managed to be in ascendency at whatever arbitrary date PP chooses are entitled to the land. The tribes that they stole it from and tried to eradicate can then demand the land back. The tribes that those tribes stole the land from can then claim it back from the tribes whose land was stolen by the tribes who had their land stolen by settlers. We can keep playing this game until we can track down whoever has feet that fit the White Sands footprints. It will be like modern day Cinderella, but with more victimhood

Ok. Give them all a big chunk of land and let them decide how to break it up.

How is that fair the the descendants of Paleo-Americans whose ancestors settled in a given area? Why should the descendants of a group who tried to eradicate them and stole their land be entitled to it?

Life is not fair. How did you miss that lesson?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Trust me if we needed to, we would. The same way if your children were hungry, you'd steal from your neighbor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Trust me if we needed to, we would. The same way if your children were hungry, you'd steal from your neighbor.

But what does it mean to "need to." Did the early settlers "need to" take over this land? And later did the British government "need to" formally invade and take over?

I read the PP as saying that it is "the way of the world" for people to just take what they want as long as they have the force to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s almost as if people don’t realize that life is a competition.

It’s almost as if people don’t realize that rising above our base instincts is what makes us human.