NYU Prof fired because his class was too hard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

Tell me you don’t know about medicine without telling me you don’t know about medicine

Ah look the doctor’s feelings are hurt again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

Absolutely agree with this. Orgo is a grind—my mom too it 70 years ago and is still complaining about it. But the job of the professor is to teach and if the majority of students are not learning the material, it does raise questions about whether the teaching is effective. Seems like NYU decided it wasn’t. Sometimes the proof is in the pudding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

Weird that you think an aging human doesn't become less engaging, coherent, patient, or interesting over decades of teaching the same thing.

Such a puerile overstatement! DC is in a language class taught by a 78 year old cancer survivor who is engaging, witty, completely overqualified and completely committed to student success. Teaching is a place where the weight of years is not necessarily a handicap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Well, gosh, that explains everything. And after all, learning via the printed word is such a silly concept.

Give us a break.

[Anonymous]

Organic chem is supposed to be hard. It’s always been hard.

Anyone seen the movie idiocracy??

[Anonymous]

I think this is difficult to say from just the article. Someone implied NYU wasn't a good school, and I don't think that's true. NYU is a solid school. It sounds like the professor was also well known as a tough but fair teacher. Still, if so many students are failing your class, is that a good thing? I hadn't really heard of "weed out" classes before, maybe because I majored in the humanities. But I can't say I like that idea as a parent. That I'm spending 58,000+ a year on my kid's education--or they have taken out big loans to pay for that education--and then there are classes that are DESIGNED to get them to fail?

I see the point. The professor feels like Organic Chemistry is really important if you're going to become a competent doctor. And it does also seem like the professors provided some extra materials. I believe one of the students said they were surprised he got fired, so that might not have been the intention. But the reality is that the pandemic HAS been hard on students. And it's possible he was a dick and got crotchety as he's gotten older.

Hard to say. If it were my kid and I had known them to be a hard worker and they were failing and really trying, I would be upset. But can you say that all of those students were really trying? That the university has put extra supports in place for students who were very affected by a big loss in learning? It is a shame for that professor, and I have to give him kudos for not watering down his material. But I do also wonder if there was not another way to help so many students who were struggling.

[Anonymous]

I want to know how many of the complainers diligently sought help in his office hours. Their expectation that he make his lectures available by zoom is telling. As opposed to their attending class and taking meticulous notes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to know how many of the complainers diligently sought help in his office hours. Their expectation that he make his lectures available by zoom is telling. As opposed to their attending class and taking meticulous notes?

It's a huge lecture, not a small discussion class, right? I mean this guy is putting up his videos on youtube so zoom isn't really telling of anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this is difficult to say from just the article. Someone implied NYU wasn't a good school, and I don't think that's true. NYU is a solid school. It sounds like the professor was also well known as a tough but fair teacher. Still, if so many students are failing your class, is that a good thing? I hadn't really heard of "weed out" classes before, maybe because I majored in the humanities. But I can't say I like that idea as a parent. That I'm spending 58,000+ a year on my kid's education--or they have taken out big loans to pay for that education--and then there are classes that are DESIGNED to get them to fail?

I see the point. The professor feels like Organic Chemistry is really important if you're going to become a competent doctor. And it does also seem like the professors provided some extra materials. I believe one of the students said they were surprised he got fired, so that might not have been the intention. But the reality is that the pandemic HAS been hard on students. And it's possible he was a dick and got crotchety as he's gotten older.

Hard to say. If it were my kid and I had known them to be a hard worker and they were failing and really trying, I would be upset. But can you say that all of those students were really trying? That the university has put extra supports in place for students who were very affected by a big loss in learning? It is a shame for that professor, and I have to give him kudos for not watering down his material. But I do also wonder if there was not another way to help so many students who were struggling.

I am the state school grad who wrote a page or two ago. At some level, this is what I was getting at. College is really expensive, and I think it's entirely justified for students and parents to question what they actually receive for their money. It's also interesting to me how many people on this thread seem willing to accept the status quo - as thought it's acceptable to pay $$$$ for a teacher who cannot communicate the material, putting the kids in a position where they have to learn the material on their own. We can discuss many great things about the model - students develop grit and resourcefulness for starters - but what has NYU done to earn all that money?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to know how many of the complainers diligently sought help in his office hours. Their expectation that he make his lectures available by zoom is telling. As opposed to their attending class and taking meticulous notes?

It's a huge lecture, not a small discussion class, right? I mean this guy is putting up his videos on youtube so zoom isn't really telling of anything.

A huge lecture class means they could have availed themselves of both professor and TA support in office hours. Would love to know if they made any effort to do so. What I hear from several college prof friends these days is that students are incredibly passive, unwilling to do the work / come to class prepared, and take little responsibility for their role in the learning process. But I can also believe they were not well-equipped for college due to pandemic learning losses. Both things can be true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to know how many of the complainers diligently sought help in his office hours. Their expectation that he make his lectures available by zoom is telling. As opposed to their attending class and taking meticulous notes?

It's a huge lecture, not a small discussion class, right? I mean this guy is putting up his videos on youtube so zoom isn't really telling of anything.

A huge lecture class means they could have availed themselves of both professor and TA support in office hours. Would love to know if they made any effort to do so. What I hear from several college prof friends these days is that students are incredibly passive, unwilling to do the work / come to class prepared, and take little responsibility for their role in the learning process. But I can also believe they were not well-equipped for college due to pandemic learning losses. Both things can be true.

Not only can both be true, but problems are functions of the pandemic, yet no one will acknowledge that. Do we really want a generation of students to drop out of college because administration and professors, most of whom demanded to teach remotely themselves, won't deviate from the norm to address widespread problems and shortcomings in preparation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Organic chem is supposed to be hard. It’s always been hard.

Anyone seen the movie idiocracy??

Yes, but the few people I knew who took orgo (now current doctors) were very organized. They found their stride in the class and got a decent grade in the class. They also went on to do great on the MCAT.
If I heard that these people, didn't at least get a passing grade in even this very hard class, I'd think something was wrong with the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to know how many of the complainers diligently sought help in his office hours. Their expectation that he make his lectures available by zoom is telling. As opposed to their attending class and taking meticulous notes?

It's a huge lecture, not a small discussion class, right? I mean this guy is putting up his videos on youtube so zoom isn't really telling of anything.

A huge lecture class means they could have availed themselves of both professor and TA support in office hours. Would love to know if they made any effort to do so. What I hear from several college prof friends these days is that students are incredibly passive, unwilling to do the work / come to class prepared, and take little responsibility for their role in the learning process. But I can also believe they were not well-equipped for college due to pandemic learning losses. Both things can be true.

Not only can both be true, but problems are functions of the pandemic, yet no one will acknowledge that. Do we really want a generation of students to drop out of college because administration and professors, most of whom demanded to teach remotely themselves, won't deviate from the norm to address widespread problems and shortcomings in preparation?

Professors have not been teaching remotely for at least a year, but nice try. The prof said he did adjust expectations, offer support etc. You don't believe him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chem is supposed to be hard. It’s always been hard.

Anyone seen the movie idiocracy??

Yes, but the few people I knew who took orgo (now current doctors) were very organized. They found their stride in the class and got a decent grade in the class. They also went on to do great on the MCAT.
If I heard that these people, didn't at least get a passing grade in even this very hard class, I'd think something was wrong with the class.

But that's not what you're hearing, or at least you don't know that that's the case. The percentage of students complaining is actually in line with the number that falls toward the bottom of the bell curve. That's always the way these classes have been graded, even if I personally believe that system should be re-evaluated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to know how many of the complainers diligently sought help in his office hours. Their expectation that he make his lectures available by zoom is telling. As opposed to their attending class and taking meticulous notes?

The complaint about lectures not being available over zoom was specifically about students prohibited from attending classes while they had active covid infections. In pre-covid times, no one stopped you from going to class just because you were sick so students could still attend classes. Prohibiting students from attending while not making the lectures available over zoom but still holding students accountable for the content of those lectures is setting them up to fail.