Why are teachers and nurses underpaid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:EVERY industry is having a staffing crisis now - from the haircuttery to Fortune 500 companies. A million people died of Covid over the past two years. There is a labor shortage across the board. But of course, teachers complain the loudest.

Eh. Try the job for a week. (A day?) Then you’ll understand. There’s a reason teachers are so adamantly calling for change.

And no, all other professions aren’t facing a shortage. Where are all the articles about a lawyer shortage? A banker shortage? A corporate office staffer shortage? A firefighter shortage? No, it isn’t every industry, but you already knew that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe how dumb all of you are seriously

No one is underpaid. Yall are choosing and continuing to stay in a profession. If you are underpaid quit and do a job that pays more

It is supply and demand.

Starting salaries for teachers have increased because of supply and demand

I think some of you are jealous because you have 15 years in and are making peanuts. The pay scale is public knowledge

Props to the nurse on here that actually has some common sense

The current cycle is what happened with entry level IT labor. Look it up.

And yes teaching and nursing are entry level. At least in nursing there is a promotion path vs teaching where a 0 year teacher does the exact same thing as a 30 year teacher.

If you want to be paid more there has to be more job differentiation to allow for higher salaries and guess what its unions that are fighting against that.

I am so confused by this post. It seems to be arguing against itself.

[Anonymous]

First Columbus and now Seattle. For all the posters telling teachers to quit, it looks like you’ll get your wish. They’re just going to strike for better conditions first.

https://www.king5.com/amp/article/news/education/seattle-education-association-authorizes-teacher-strike/281-5d8453cf-740c-4685-8a13-14997f7e91b1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:EVERY industry is having a staffing crisis now - from the haircuttery to Fortune 500 companies. A million people died of Covid over the past two years. There is a labor shortage across the board. But of course, teachers complain the loudest.

Kids aren't safe if there aren't sufficient staff managing the schools. Most of us have jobs that don't have that impact. You may lie to yourself but most of us don't have jobs that make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are teachers really underpaid?

I know a teacher who teaches special Ed 4th graders. She is pulling in $133k per year with 18 years in. Insane benefits and a pension. The ones who bellyache the most about being underpaid in teaching are the ones who don't have a lot of years in and who work at crappy school districts.

Go read up on the epic debacle of the entire state of Illinois. There are teachers there collecting like $100-200k per year in pension who make more in pension than they made in contributions to the system. They didn't even serve as senior level teaching admin positions. It's completely absurd.

Don't forget, they get paid $133k per year PLUS all the holidays and 3 months off in the summer. PLUS lavish pensions and benefits. It's really a part time job at full time pay.

I read that teachers are more likely to whine than other professions. That seems to be indeed the case just looking through this thread...

Only there’s not a single 10 month teacher making $133K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVERY industry is having a staffing crisis now - from the haircuttery to Fortune 500 companies. A million people died of Covid over the past two years. There is a labor shortage across the board. But of course, teachers complain the loudest.

Eh. Try the job for a week. (A day?) Then you’ll understand. There’s a reason teachers are so adamantly calling for change.

And no, all other professions aren’t facing a shortage. Where are all the articles about a lawyer shortage? A banker shortage? A corporate office staffer shortage? A firefighter shortage? No, it isn’t every industry, but you already knew that.

NP and only weighing in on the shortage issue but there's definitely a lawyer shortage. Well, to put it more precisely, there is a shortage of the type of lawyers with the background that certain firms want to hire. Everyone is chasing the same unicorn employees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's always something with teachers. First during COVID many teachers unions refused to reopen schools, even after vaccines became widely available. The learning loss to our kids was immense. Now it's shifted to pay, even with many teachers making $80k+, solid benefits and oodles of vacation. And tomorrow it's going to be about some other perceived slight. Other workers take pride in their profession and just focus on getting the job done, but with teachers the whining just never ends.

It is laughable that people think unions could keep schools closed. My union's big accomplishment the year before Covid was a fan drive to raise money to buy fans for teachers in schools/classrooms with a/c.

But unions did keep schools closed. DCPS did not reopen until much later because the union told administrators that teachers would simply refuse to show up to work.

How do you explain it in non-union states like VA?

Even without a union there were still various teacher pressure groups that threatened to have teachers walk out if schools had reopened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's always something with teachers. First during COVID many teachers unions refused to reopen schools, even after vaccines became widely available. The learning loss to our kids was immense. Now it's shifted to pay, even with many teachers making $80k+, solid benefits and oodles of vacation. And tomorrow it's going to be about some other perceived slight. Other workers take pride in their profession and just focus on getting the job done, but with teachers the whining just never ends.

It is laughable that people think unions could keep schools closed. My union's big accomplishment the year before Covid was a fan drive to raise money to buy fans for teachers in schools/classrooms with a/c.

But unions did keep schools closed. DCPS did not reopen until much later because the union told administrators that teachers would simply refuse to show up to work.

How do you explain it in non-union states like VA?

Even without a union there were still various teacher pressure groups that threatened to have teachers walk out if schools had reopened.

The PP said "teacher unions refused to reopen schools". I am highly doubtful that any teacher "unions" in VA carry that kind of clout. They don't have the membership numbers to be able to have teachers walk out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVERY industry is having a staffing crisis now - from the haircuttery to Fortune 500 companies. A million people died of Covid over the past two years. There is a labor shortage across the board. But of course, teachers complain the loudest.

Eh. Try the job for a week. (A day?) Then you’ll understand. There’s a reason teachers are so adamantly calling for change.

And no, all other professions aren’t facing a shortage. Where are all the articles about a lawyer shortage? A banker shortage? A corporate office staffer shortage? A firefighter shortage? No, it isn’t every industry, but you already knew that.

There are actually shortages in many of those other jobs. It's just that they don't whine as loudly as teachers. Also, these other professionals don't just get 2-3 months off in the summer so they can think of the 1000 reasons why they're so underpaid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVERY industry is having a staffing crisis now - from the haircuttery to Fortune 500 companies. A million people died of Covid over the past two years. There is a labor shortage across the board. But of course, teachers complain the loudest.

Eh. Try the job for a week. (A day?) Then you’ll understand. There’s a reason teachers are so adamantly calling for change.

And no, all other professions aren’t facing a shortage. Where are all the articles about a lawyer shortage? A banker shortage? A corporate office staffer shortage? A firefighter shortage? No, it isn’t every industry, but you already knew that.

There are actually shortages in many of those other jobs. It's just that they don't whine as loudly as teachers. Also, these other professionals don't just get 2-3 months off in the summer so they can think of the 1000 reasons why they're so underpaid.

This isn’t hard to understand. (Perhaps it is since a few posters are having difficulty with the concept.) Schools are facing extreme shortages. Teachers are walking out, either by striking or by quitting. People don’t leave their jobs when they are adequately respected and compensated; they have bills and responsibilities. You can scream “it’s such a great deal” all you want, but the people who actually KNOW the deal clearly disagree. This thread is full of a disconnect: misled posters claiming teachers have it good and then posters illustrating the stark truth about the state of education.

Having your head in the sand does not change reality. It just lets you remain ignorant to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVERY industry is having a staffing crisis now - from the haircuttery to Fortune 500 companies. A million people died of Covid over the past two years. There is a labor shortage across the board. But of course, teachers complain the loudest.

Eh. Try the job for a week. (A day?) Then you’ll understand. There’s a reason teachers are so adamantly calling for change.

And no, all other professions aren’t facing a shortage. Where are all the articles about a lawyer shortage? A banker shortage? A corporate office staffer shortage? A firefighter shortage? No, it isn’t every industry, but you already knew that.

If you're a teacher, you really aren't helping your profession. I'm not sure if you're wilfully ignorant or lazy.

Lawyer shortage: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business-and-practice/overworked-big-law-cant-find-enough-lawyers-with-demand-surging

Banker shortage: https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/03/23/wall-street-bonuses-hit-all-time-high-as-banker-shortage-rages/amp/

White collar shortage: https://hechingerreport.org/facing-a-white-collar-worker-shortage-american-companies-seek-a-blue-collar-solution/

Another white collar shoerage: https://www.wsj.com/articles/for-white-collar-workers-its-prime-time-to-get-a-big-raise-11645439400

Firefighter shortage: https://www.sfchronicle.com/california-wildfires/article/forest-service-firefighters-17350152.php

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe how dumb all of you are seriously

No one is underpaid. Yall are choosing and continuing to stay in a profession. If you are underpaid quit and do a job that pays more

It is supply and demand.

Starting salaries for teachers have increased because of supply and demand

I think some of you are jealous because you have 15 years in and are making peanuts. The pay scale is public knowledge

Props to the nurse on here that actually has some common sense

The current cycle is what happened with entry level IT labor. Look it up.

And yes teaching and nursing are entry level. At least in nursing there is a promotion path vs teaching where a 0 year teacher does the exact same thing as a 30 year teacher.

If you want to be paid more there has to be more job differentiation to allow for higher salaries and guess what its unions that are fighting against that.

I'm another nurse.

There's a promotion path in nursing if you "leave the bedside" and get a master's degree to become a nurse practitioner in a well-compensated field of medicine (speciality medicine like orthopedics or anesthesia) OR if you go into nursing administration. Both are great career paths but are similar to a teacher becoming a curriculum developer for an education company or a principal. There is more money to be made but not in the original role. You also have to pay $100-150K for NP or nurse anesthesia school (prices for a master's in nursing have gone through the roof in recent years--most are >$150K).

I've been a nurse for 20 years and the staring salaries at major hospitals (Hopkins, Georgetown, etc) are the SAME today as they were 20 years ago. A nurse with a bachelors' degree wil start at around $65K. And like teaching there is very room for salary increases unless you change job title and completely leave the traditional nurse role. If you stay working as an ICU nurse (and the world NEEDS experienced ICU nurses) you will likely be making $85K 20 years in.
As a result in a place like DC you either have constant turn-around in these jobs or you have nurses who work in DC put live 2 hours away or you even have hospital bringing in foreign nurses because they will live in boarding home type settings so they can afford to live closer in. Salaries have not kept up with inflation--they have been stable (if not decreased) for 20+ years.

Anyway, it's a constant issue and will continue to be because nursing is an almost entirely female field and has never had a true voice in the healthcare arena. They one market where they do have a voice (because they're heavily unionized) is in California. And there nurses make about twice what they do in DC. A bedside nurse can start for $120K and be at >$150K within a few years.

Also--I wanted to address travel nursing as I know it's been all over the press with the pandemic. There is definitely money to be made but it's not always simple. These are short (8-12 week) contracts and don't always come with benefits (maybe health insurance but never PTO). They are commonly in hospital settings that are particularly hard to work and undesirable: under-staffed, under-supported hospitals. Places that can't retain staff through traditional hiring channels so they have to pay more to a traveling company. It's also difficult to get back-to-back travel contracts. So you may make $$ for 12 weeks but then have no income for 3. Plus the factor that you have to travel which is difficult if not impossible to do with kids and a partner (hey guys, we're moving to Boise for 3 months. Pack up!)

[Anonymous]

I think they are paid less, in part, because we need so many. It would be very difficult to pay that many people a top salary. As a result, there is motivation to keep the salaries low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe how dumb all of you are seriously

No one is underpaid. Yall are choosing and continuing to stay in a profession. If you are underpaid quit and do a job that pays more

It is supply and demand.

Starting salaries for teachers have increased because of supply and demand

I think some of you are jealous because you have 15 years in and are making peanuts. The pay scale is public knowledge

Props to the nurse on here that actually has some common sense

The current cycle is what happened with entry level IT labor. Look it up.

And yes teaching and nursing are entry level. At least in nursing there is a promotion path vs teaching where a 0 year teacher does the exact same thing as a 30 year teacher.

If you want to be paid more there has to be more job differentiation to allow for higher salaries and guess what its unions that are fighting against that.

I'm another nurse.

There's a promotion path in nursing if you "leave the bedside" and get a master's degree to become a nurse practitioner in a well-compensated field of medicine (speciality medicine like orthopedics or anesthesia) OR if you go into nursing administration. Both are great career paths but are similar to a teacher becoming a curriculum developer for an education company or a principal. There is more money to be made but not in the original role. You also have to pay $100-150K for NP or nurse anesthesia school (prices for a master's in nursing have gone through the roof in recent years--most are >$150K).

I've been a nurse for 20 years and the staring salaries at major hospitals (Hopkins, Georgetown, etc) are the SAME today as they were 20 years ago. A nurse with a bachelors' degree wil start at around $65K. And like teaching there is very room for salary increases unless you change job title and completely leave the traditional nurse role. If you stay working as an ICU nurse (and the world NEEDS experienced ICU nurses) you will likely be making $85K 20 years in.
As a result in a place like DC you either have constant turn-around in these jobs or you have nurses who work in DC put live 2 hours away or you even have hospital bringing in foreign nurses because they will live in boarding home type settings so they can afford to live closer in. Salaries have not kept up with inflation--they have been stable (if not decreased) for 20+ years.

Anyway, it's a constant issue and will continue to be because nursing is an almost entirely female field and has never had a true voice in the healthcare arena. They one market where they do have a voice (because they're heavily unionized) is in California. And there nurses make about twice what they do in DC. A bedside nurse can start for $120K and be at >$150K within a few years.

Also--I wanted to address travel nursing as I know it's been all over the press with the pandemic. There is definitely money to be made but it's not always simple. These are short (8-12 week) contracts and don't always come with benefits (maybe health insurance but never PTO). They are commonly in hospital settings that are particularly hard to work and undesirable: under-staffed, under-supported hospitals. Places that can't retain staff through traditional hiring channels so they have to pay more to a traveling company. It's also difficult to get back-to-back travel contracts. So you may make $$ for 12 weeks but then have no income for 3. Plus the factor that you have to travel which is difficult if not impossible to do with kids and a partner (hey guys, we're moving to Boise for 3 months. Pack up!)

There's also a promotion path for teachers: They can eventually become principals and other senior school administrators. But instead it seems some of the PPs want to stay in the same entry-level job for 30 years while also making executive-level salaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe how dumb all of you are seriously

No one is underpaid. Yall are choosing and continuing to stay in a profession. If you are underpaid quit and do a job that pays more

It is supply and demand.

Starting salaries for teachers have increased because of supply and demand

I think some of you are jealous because you have 15 years in and are making peanuts. The pay scale is public knowledge

Props to the nurse on here that actually has some common sense

The current cycle is what happened with entry level IT labor. Look it up.

And yes teaching and nursing are entry level. At least in nursing there is a promotion path vs teaching where a 0 year teacher does the exact same thing as a 30 year teacher.

If you want to be paid more there has to be more job differentiation to allow for higher salaries and guess what its unions that are fighting against that.

I'm another nurse.

There's a promotion path in nursing if you "leave the bedside" and get a master's degree to become a nurse practitioner in a well-compensated field of medicine (speciality medicine like orthopedics or anesthesia) OR if you go into nursing administration. Both are great career paths but are similar to a teacher becoming a curriculum developer for an education company or a principal. There is more money to be made but not in the original role. You also have to pay $100-150K for NP or nurse anesthesia school (prices for a master's in nursing have gone through the roof in recent years--most are >$150K).

I've been a nurse for 20 years and the staring salaries at major hospitals (Hopkins, Georgetown, etc) are the SAME today as they were 20 years ago. A nurse with a bachelors' degree wil start at around $65K. And like teaching there is very room for salary increases unless you change job title and completely leave the traditional nurse role. If you stay working as an ICU nurse (and the world NEEDS experienced ICU nurses) you will likely be making $85K 20 years in.
As a result in a place like DC you either have constant turn-around in these jobs or you have nurses who work in DC put live 2 hours away or you even have hospital bringing in foreign nurses because they will live in boarding home type settings so they can afford to live closer in. Salaries have not kept up with inflation--they have been stable (if not decreased) for 20+ years.

Anyway, it's a constant issue and will continue to be because nursing is an almost entirely female field and has never had a true voice in the healthcare arena. They one market where they do have a voice (because they're heavily unionized) is in California. And there nurses make about twice what they do in DC. A bedside nurse can start for $120K and be at >$150K within a few years.

Also--I wanted to address travel nursing as I know it's been all over the press with the pandemic. There is definitely money to be made but it's not always simple. These are short (8-12 week) contracts and don't always come with benefits (maybe health insurance but never PTO). They are commonly in hospital settings that are particularly hard to work and undesirable: under-staffed, under-supported hospitals. Places that can't retain staff through traditional hiring channels so they have to pay more to a traveling company. It's also difficult to get back-to-back travel contracts. So you may make $$ for 12 weeks but then have no income for 3. Plus the factor that you have to travel which is difficult if not impossible to do with kids and a partner (hey guys, we're moving to Boise for 3 months. Pack up!)

There's also a promotion path for teachers: They can eventually become principals and other senior school administrators. But instead it seems some of the PPs want to stay in the same entry-level job for 30 years while also making executive-level salaries.

I'm not sure anyone is looking for executive level salaries but just a living wage.

I was hired as a new nurse in 1999 for $65K. That is same salary being given to nurses in DC (with a bachelor's degree) today in 2022. Instead of increasing salaries, hospitals are finding sources of cheaper labor (foreign grads, unlicensed personnel, higher nurse-to-patient ratios). None are good for patient care.
Instead of increasing teachers salaries, states are finding cheaper labor (allowing people to teach without degrees, etc).

You could increase the starting salaries of these professions by $10-20K/year and you would change a lot. Not executive level salaries. As it stands, there is no way I would have my child go into either profession. You can't afford to live in any area outside of rural America. I mean, you can scrape by but there is no hope of home ownership, etc without a partner who makes more. I have kids in DCPS and my kid's teachers commute in from up to 2 HOURS AWAY because they want to live in a place larger then a one bedroom (they have kids, etc).