Did MCPS do a sneaky thing for the magnet lotteries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

Yes. Even if the parents encourage kids to learn outside school or even point them in the direction of say a free enrichment resource like Khan Academy, it is inequitable. Because how can a parent who is not educated or doesn't have a fast internet connection compete? In some families there are even two parents. Not fair. Make it all equal first and then we'll see whose kids are actually gifted. How do we measure giftedness after we have equalized everything? I don't know. Why don't we just make it all a lottery and be done with it?

The only way to do what you suggest is to slow the whole system down to such a crawl that it would destroy everything. The goal isn't to get everyone exactly equal. It's to find the best of the best. And those kids are the ones who study all the time and, yes, have some advantages like 2 parent households and books in the home. There's no way for kids who don't have those things to compete and that's OK. They can do something elae.

I don't think anyone is against enrichment, but these cram schools that teach to the test help average kids present as gifted. These places are effective at improving a child's odds of accessing enriched opportunities but many can't afford them. I'm not honestly sure what the best solution is but the cohort criteria seem to do a good job of limiting their impact while allowing students from less affluent areas a sporting chance. Sure, a few of the less successful preppers may not make the cut but the outliers from all areas will. It isn't perfect by any means but is a big improvement over the system that existed previously where the majority of those being admitted were cram school alumni. At least now the hardworking gifted kid that only has access to Khan Academy has half a chance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Nothing was handed out. Those kids earned those spots by proving they could do the work at the prep center. Under the new system, MCPS is hoping that kids who haven't proven anything can do the work. Hint: they can't. This is a race to the bottom.

I know what you mean. I spent over $15k in prep classes so my kids could get in. That isn't handing things out at all. It's downright expensive!

My kids worked hard at the prep center too. They earned their spots in the magnet!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Nothing was handed out. Those kids earned those spots by proving they could do the work at the prep center. Under the new system, MCPS is hoping that kids who haven't proven anything can do the work. Hint: they can't. This is a race to the bottom.

I know what you mean. I spent over $15k in prep classes so my kids could get in. That isn't handing things out at all. It's downright expensive!

My kids worked hard at the prep center too. They earned their spots in the magnet!


If you spent $15K to prepare your kids for CES test, you are not very bright. A large part of your kids’ IQ is inherited from their mothers so I wonder if your kids are truly gifted or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Nothing was handed out. Those kids earned those spots by proving they could do the work at the prep center. Under the new system, MCPS is hoping that kids who haven't proven anything can do the work. Hint: they can't. This is a race to the bottom.

I know what you mean. I spent over $15k in prep classes so my kids could get in. That isn't handing things out at all. It's downright expensive!

My kids worked hard at the prep center too. They earned their spots in the magnet!

If you spent $15K to prepare your kids for CES test, you are not very bright. A large part of your kids’ IQ is inherited from their mothers so I wonder if your kids are truly gifted or not.

My kids are completely average but after attending prep school their scores went up enough so they present as gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

Yes. Even if the parents encourage kids to learn outside school or even point them in the direction of say a free enrichment resource like Khan Academy, it is inequitable. Because how can a parent who is not educated or doesn't have a fast internet connection compete? In some families there are even two parents. Not fair. Make it all equal first and then we'll see whose kids are actually gifted. How do we measure giftedness after we have equalized everything? I don't know. Why don't we just make it all a lottery and be done with it?

This is getting close to Harrison Bergeron territory.

Probably should just give our kids to the government to take care of immediately after child birth to make sure that no kid was ever given a special advantage from their parents that could aid in success in any way.

Yes. That's the society I want to live in. Right them wrongs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

Yes. Even if the parents encourage kids to learn outside school or even point them in the direction of say a free enrichment resource like Khan Academy, it is inequitable. Because how can a parent who is not educated or doesn't have a fast internet connection compete? In some families there are even two parents. Not fair. Make it all equal first and then we'll see whose kids are actually gifted. How do we measure giftedness after we have equalized everything? I don't know. Why don't we just make it all a lottery and be done with it?

This is getting close to Harrison Bergeron territory.

Probably should just give our kids to the government to take care of immediately after child birth to make sure that no kid was ever given a special advantage from their parents that could aid in success in any way.

Yes. That's the society I want to live in. Right them wrongs.

That seems like a different discussion. Back on Earth, we're just talking about adopting an admission policy that doesn't overly favor wealthy areas where all bright kids have a shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

It's like this: The point of a "GT" program is to identify kids who are gifted. Those who learn differently, not just those who have been exposed to more material by the same age. I'm not a fan of the "cram school" accusations on this thread, because they reek of racist dog whistles, but even without those dog whistles, MCPS is not in the business (nor should they be) of getting into an arms race with parents, in which parents rush to expose kids to more and more material outside of school and school just picks up where RSM left off.

If MCPS truly wants to have a "gifted" program, they have to figure out how to identify kids who learn differently.

Now, in reality, any GT program is going to have a mix of truly gifted kids and just above average hard workers. But the previous system was leaving a lot of talent behind because it was set up in a way to be nearly inaccessible to certain communities. That's what MCPS is trying to address now, with some success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

It's like this: The point of a "GT" program is to identify kids who are gifted. Those who learn differently, not just those who have been exposed to more material by the same age. I'm not a fan of the "cram school" accusations on this thread, because they reek of racist dog whistles, but even without those dog whistles, MCPS is not in the business (nor should they be) of getting into an arms race with parents, in which parents rush to expose kids to more and more material outside of school and school just picks up where RSM left off.

If MCPS truly wants to have a "gifted" program, they have to figure out how to identify kids who learn differently.

Now, in reality, any GT program is going to have a mix of truly gifted kids and just above average hard workers. But the previous system was leaving a lot of talent behind because it was set up in a way to be nearly inaccessible to certain communities. That's what MCPS is trying to address now, with some success.

Agree but that seems unfathomable to some. Personally what MCPS has done prior to the lottery seemed moderate and reasonable to me, but I'm also not a fan of how the lottery has panned out. Even more talented kids are being left out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

It's like this: The point of a "GT" program is to identify kids who are gifted. Those who learn differently, not just those who have been exposed to more material by the same age. I'm not a fan of the "cram school" accusations on this thread, because they reek of racist dog whistles, but even without those dog whistles, MCPS is not in the business (nor should they be) of getting into an arms race with parents, in which parents rush to expose kids to more and more material outside of school and school just picks up where RSM left off.

If MCPS truly wants to have a "gifted" program, they have to figure out how to identify kids who learn differently.

Now, in reality, any GT program is going to have a mix of truly gifted kids and just above average hard workers. But the previous system was leaving a lot of talent behind because it was set up in a way to be nearly inaccessible to certain communities. That's what MCPS is trying to address now, with some success.

Agree but that seems unfathomable to some. Personally what MCPS has done prior to the lottery seemed moderate and reasonable to me, but I'm also not a fan of how the lottery has panned out. Even more talented kids are being left out.

I'm the PP and I don't know anyone who thinks the "85% lottery" is a good plan. But I also think it would be a mistake to look at that plan as anything but the best of bad options in a pandemic. MCPS could not administer the CoGAT in a virtual learning environment. Not only would cheating be rampant, but the test company forbids it.

So...what do you do when one of the only aptitude-based tests is off the table? How do you find the gifted kid whose MAP scores aren't great because their school didn't get to the entire curriculum that year and they don't have access to outside enrichment? You kind of toss it all up in the air and hope it works out. It's not a great situation, but taking kids based solely on MAP scores also isn't a great solution.

Hopefully this year is more normal, and MCPS continues to figure out how to best serve the actual goal of gifted programs, which is to identify kids who need a different kind of instruction and/or who would not have a peer group in their home school.

[Anonymous]

It's like this: The point of a "GT" program is to identify kids who are gifted. Those who learn differently, not just those who have been exposed to more material by the same age. I'm not a fan of the "cram school" accusations on this thread, because they reek of racist dog whistles, but even without those dog whistles, MCPS is not in the business (nor should they be) of getting into an arms race with parents, in which parents rush to expose kids to more and more material outside of school and school just picks up where RSM left off.

If MCPS truly wants to have a "gifted" program, they have to figure out how to identify kids who learn differently.

Now, in reality, any GT program is going to have a mix of truly gifted kids and just above average hard workers. But the previous system was leaving a lot of talent behind because it was set up in a way to be nearly inaccessible to certain communities. That's what MCPS is trying to address now, with some success.



We’ll, they were, a couple years ago. But the recent lottery criteria leaned very heavily on grades and MAP scores, which actually favors kids who are getting some kind of outside enrichment. The COGAT is designed to identify ability, the MAP and grades identify learned content.

So kids in a school with well-behaved kids that get a lot of learning done are going to score a lot higher for a magnet than talented kids in a class that is barely getting through the day. Kids getting outside enrichment will also score a lot higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if a student “prepped” which means that they were prepared for enriched learning then that means that they should not receive enriched learning? I’m not sure I’m understanding the argument here.

BTW, my kid went to CES with no “prep” and we don’t know anyone who did.

It's like this: The point of a "GT" program is to identify kids who are gifted. Those who learn differently, not just those who have been exposed to more material by the same age. I'm not a fan of the "cram school" accusations on this thread, because they reek of racist dog whistles, but even without those dog whistles, MCPS is not in the business (nor should they be) of getting into an arms race with parents, in which parents rush to expose kids to more and more material outside of school and school just picks up where RSM left off.

If MCPS truly wants to have a "gifted" program, they have to figure out how to identify kids who learn differently.

Now, in reality, any GT program is going to have a mix of truly gifted kids and just above average hard workers. But the previous system was leaving a lot of talent behind because it was set up in a way to be nearly inaccessible to certain communities. That's what MCPS is trying to address now, with some success.

Agree but that seems unfathomable to some. Personally what MCPS has done prior to the lottery seemed moderate and reasonable to me, but I'm also not a fan of how the lottery has panned out. Even more talented kids are being left out.

I'm the PP and I don't know anyone who thinks the "85% lottery" is a good plan. But I also think it would be a mistake to look at that plan as anything but the best of bad options in a pandemic. MCPS could not administer the CoGAT in a virtual learning environment. Not only would cheating be rampant, but the test company forbids it.

So...what do you do when one of the only aptitude-based tests is off the table? How do you find the gifted kid whose MAP scores aren't great because their school didn't get to the entire curriculum that year and they don't have access to outside enrichment? You kind of toss it all up in the air and hope it works out. It's not a great situation, but taking kids based solely on MAP scores also isn't a great solution.

Hopefully this year is more normal, and MCPS continues to figure out how to best serve the actual goal of gifted programs, which is to identify kids who need a different kind of instruction and/or who would not have a peer group in their home school.

Ha. Posted at the same time and I agree. Why isn’t MCPS bringing CoGAT back this year? Vast majority of kids are in person and it is doable if they want to.

[Anonymous]

Ha. Posted at the same time and I agree. Why isn’t MCPS bringing CoGAT back this year? Vast majority of kids are in person and it is doable if they want to.

I don't know that they aren't. Protocols for 21/22 aren't coming out until mid-December according to the AEI website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Ha. Posted at the same time and I agree. Why isn’t MCPS bringing CoGAT back this year? Vast majority of kids are in person and it is doable if they want to.

I don't know that they aren't. Protocols for 21/22 aren't coming out until mid-December according to the AEI website.

OOPs. CES info isn't coming out until mid-December. Looks like MS and HS information should arrive in early October.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ha. Posted at the same time and I agree. Why isn’t MCPS bringing CoGAT back this year? Vast majority of kids are in person and it is doable if they want to.

I don't know that they aren't. Protocols for 21/22 aren't coming out until mid-December according to the AEI website.

OOPs. CES info isn't coming out until mid-December. Looks like MS and HS information should arrive in early October.

Guessing it will be the lottery again, but to me that's the worst of all worlds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Nothing was handed out. Those kids earned those spots by proving they could do the work at the prep center. Under the new system, MCPS is hoping that kids who haven't proven anything can do the work. Hint: they can't. This is a race to the bottom.

I know what you mean. I spent over $15k in prep classes so my kids could get in. That isn't handing things out at all. It's downright expensive!

My kids worked hard at the prep center too. They earned their spots in the magnet!

I know MCPS should continue to recognize how hard-working these pep center kids are! This system worked fine in the past it should be fine today!