Did MCPS do a sneaky thing for the magnet lotteries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, we know people whose kids were not placed in the lottery for the middle school magnets. And my current 4th grader was not placed in the lottery for CES.

Everyone we know said their child was in the lottery (3rd and 5th). This is a high achieving area so who knows but looks like it from my point of view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does that mean 11k students were actually entered into the lottery? Or 11k students were examined for their eligibility for the lottery? In long past, only some students were even recommended to try for the HGC. That has expanded to all students being allowed to try for the HGC/CES, meaning all students are "considered."

It looks to me that 11k were entered into the lottery.

There are 12k students per grade:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/middle.pdf

Only MAP 85% and above can enter the lottery.

There are 3 numbers:
(1) number of students considered (MCPS published numbers, almost all students)
(2) number of students in the lottery (not published)
(3) number of students placed in programs (published)

You made this up. They have never said discussed who was actually in the lottery.
11K students were technically "considered" in 2019 and 2020 too but that is not the number in the considered column in this document.

If you are correct and I'm not saying you are correct or incorrect just that we don't know.... there's a reason MCPS is comparing apples to oranges and it's about covering up something.

If you are not sure of something, you should not accuse people of making things up.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l0Zy-bCfG7O8E-F64VOnit_54fjOIU_lTR1JyU8SSMg/edit

"Multiple academic measures were used to identify students. Given the impact of COVID-19 school-building closures, both measures from the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 school years were included. To be placed in the humanities and communication lottery pool, an A in both reading and writing and an indication of above reading grade level on the report card from Grade 4, and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-R. For math, science or computer science, an A in both math and science and an indication of on level or higher for reading on the report card from Grade 4 and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-M."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS:
Parents have a right to see see the average grades, and test scores for the kids who made the lottery versus previous years. They have a right to understand who was in the lottery pool, what cut offs were used, and why the decision to use whatever criteria they used was chosen, and why the decision was made without public discussion.

When other school districts made similar changes to their magnet programs there were forums, even virtual ones, where parents and other stakeholders could discuss and debate and there could be transparency.

Why is MCPS, a public entity funded by our taxpayer dollars, allowed to act in such secrecy and without any oversight?

Maybe because any information MCPS provides, MCPS parents will use to try to cheat the system.

I disagree with your premise, anyway. I don't think that parents have a "right" to this information.

MCPS apologist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If all those kids thrive in the magnet program, that will be a clear indication that MCPS can and should expand the offering to have more seats for more kids. Ridiculous to keep so many students away from a wonderful program that could give them a more suitable education.

But it is important to remember that there are some highly able students who are desperate for the pace and content of the magnets, and they should probably be considered priority if there are limited seats - the programs are supposed to be about providing enrichment to kids who are slowly going bananas in regular classrooms.

News flash: not every White or Asian kid thrives in those programs either. The rationale has always been that it is about potential and not performance so the gifted, but underperforming child is still benefiting from rigor. Why change that mindset now?

[Anonymous]

Looks like being ever FARMS gave a huge boost in changes of admission to CES. Probability of this happening by a straight lottery is almost 0.

FARMS - 20% of those considered were admitted
For various racial groups it ranged from 3.3-10%.

Anyone have the racial breakdown for students who are FARMS? Can it be used as a proxy for race?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does that mean 11k students were actually entered into the lottery? Or 11k students were examined for their eligibility for the lottery? In long past, only some students were even recommended to try for the HGC. That has expanded to all students being allowed to try for the HGC/CES, meaning all students are "considered."

It looks to me that 11k were entered into the lottery.

There are 12k students per grade:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/middle.pdf

Only MAP 85% and above can enter the lottery.

There are 3 numbers:
(1) number of students considered (MCPS published numbers, almost all students)
(2) number of students in the lottery (not published)
(3) number of students placed in programs (published)

You made this up. They have never said discussed who was actually in the lottery.
11K students were technically "considered" in 2019 and 2020 too but that is not the number in the considered column in this document.

If you are correct and I'm not saying you are correct or incorrect just that we don't know.... there's a reason MCPS is comparing apples to oranges and it's about covering up something.

If you are not sure of something, you should not accuse people of making things up.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l0Zy-bCfG7O8E-F64VOnit_54fjOIU_lTR1JyU8SSMg/edit

"Multiple academic measures were used to identify students. Given the impact of COVID-19 school-building closures, both measures from the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 school years were included. To be placed in the humanities and communication lottery pool, an A in both reading and writing and an indication of above reading grade level on the report card from Grade 4, and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-R. For math, science or computer science, an A in both math and science and an indication of on level or higher for reading on the report card from Grade 4 and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-M."

You don't seem to understand the point. The point is MCPS has never said how many students were in the lottery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS:
Parents have a right to see see the average grades, and test scores for the kids who made the lottery versus previous years. They have a right to understand who was in the lottery pool, what cut offs were used, and why the decision to use whatever criteria they used was chosen, and why the decision was made without public discussion.

When other school districts made similar changes to their magnet programs there were forums, even virtual ones, where parents and other stakeholders could discuss and debate and there could be transparency.

Why is MCPS, a public entity funded by our taxpayer dollars, allowed to act in such secrecy and without any oversight?

Maybe because any information MCPS provides, MCPS parents will use to try to cheat the system.

I disagree with your premise, anyway. I don't think that parents have a "right" to this information.

MCPS apologist

Given that they're funded with taxes I would think people have the right to know.

[Anonymous]

Parents do have a right to know. This is why it's called a democracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS:
Parents have a right to see see the average grades, and test scores for the kids who made the lottery versus previous years. They have a right to understand who was in the lottery pool, what cut offs were used, and why the decision to use whatever criteria they used was chosen, and why the decision was made without public discussion.

When other school districts made similar changes to their magnet programs there were forums, even virtual ones, where parents and other stakeholders could discuss and debate and there could be transparency.

Why is MCPS, a public entity funded by our taxpayer dollars, allowed to act in such secrecy and without any oversight?

Maybe because any information MCPS provides, MCPS parents will use to try to cheat the system.

I disagree with your premise, anyway. I don't think that parents have a "right" to this information.

MCPS apologist

Given that they're funded with taxes I would think people have the right to know.

No, that's not how it works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents do have a right to know. This is why it's called a democracy.

No, democracy means that the voters elect the members of the board of education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Looks like being ever FARMS gave a huge boost in changes of admission to CES. Probability of this happening by a straight lottery is almost 0.

FARMS - 20% of those considered were admitted
For various racial groups it ranged from 3.3-10%.

Anyone have the racial breakdown for students who are FARMS? Can it be used as a proxy for race?

Look into the FARMS row:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/elementary.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does that mean 11k students were actually entered into the lottery? Or 11k students were examined for their eligibility for the lottery? In long past, only some students were even recommended to try for the HGC. That has expanded to all students being allowed to try for the HGC/CES, meaning all students are "considered."

It looks to me that 11k were entered into the lottery.

There are 12k students per grade:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/middle.pdf

Only MAP 85% and above can enter the lottery.

There are 3 numbers:
(1) number of students considered (MCPS published numbers, almost all students)
(2) number of students in the lottery (not published)
(3) number of students placed in programs (published)

You made this up. They have never said discussed who was actually in the lottery.
11K students were technically "considered" in 2019 and 2020 too but that is not the number in the considered column in this document.

If you are correct and I'm not saying you are correct or incorrect just that we don't know.... there's a reason MCPS is comparing apples to oranges and it's about covering up something.

If you are not sure of something, you should not accuse people of making things up.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l0Zy-bCfG7O8E-F64VOnit_54fjOIU_lTR1JyU8SSMg/edit

"Multiple academic measures were used to identify students. Given the impact of COVID-19 school-building closures, both measures from the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 school years were included. To be placed in the humanities and communication lottery pool, an A in both reading and writing and an indication of above reading grade level on the report card from Grade 4, and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-R. For math, science or computer science, an A in both math and science and an indication of on level or higher for reading on the report card from Grade 4 and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-M."

You don't seem to understand the point. The point is MCPS has never said how many students were in the lottery.

Exactly!

So if the proportion of certain groups who made it into the lottery was similar to previous years but SOMEHOW the very random lottery became weighted toward specific groups, one might infer something sneaky took place. Why do they obscure the denominator?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents do have a right to know. This is why it's called a democracy.

No, democracy means that the voters elect the members of the board of education.

You're very literal. In a democracy there is transparency and oversight over government. MCPS seems to think there shouldn't be any. Do you work there?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does that mean 11k students were actually entered into the lottery? Or 11k students were examined for their eligibility for the lottery? In long past, only some students were even recommended to try for the HGC. That has expanded to all students being allowed to try for the HGC/CES, meaning all students are "considered."

It looks to me that 11k were entered into the lottery.

There are 12k students per grade:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/middle.pdf

Only MAP 85% and above can enter the lottery.

There are 3 numbers:
(1) number of students considered (MCPS published numbers, almost all students)
(2) number of students in the lottery (not published)
(3) number of students placed in programs (published)

You made this up. They have never said discussed who was actually in the lottery.
11K students were technically "considered" in 2019 and 2020 too but that is not the number in the considered column in this document.

If you are correct and I'm not saying you are correct or incorrect just that we don't know.... there's a reason MCPS is comparing apples to oranges and it's about covering up something.

If you are not sure of something, you should not accuse people of making things up.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l0Zy-bCfG7O8E-F64VOnit_54fjOIU_lTR1JyU8SSMg/edit

"Multiple academic measures were used to identify students. Given the impact of COVID-19 school-building closures, both measures from the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 school years were included. To be placed in the humanities and communication lottery pool, an A in both reading and writing and an indication of above reading grade level on the report card from Grade 4, and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-R. For math, science or computer science, an A in both math and science and an indication of on level or higher for reading on the report card from Grade 4 and a locally normed minimum of 85th percentile on either last year (winter) or this year’s (fall) MAP-M."

You don't seem to understand the point. The point is MCPS has never said how many students were in the lottery.

Exactly!

So if the proportion of certain groups who made it into the lottery was similar to previous years but SOMEHOW the very random lottery became weighted toward specific groups, one might infer something sneaky took place. Why do they obscure the denominator?!

+1
If they have nothing to hide why not be open about it? This is really the only large school district in the whole country that I have seen behave like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Current 4th grade parent. Last year, they screened everyone. We eventually got a letter saying that our kid was put into the "pool" as "eligible" for the CES, but he was not drawn for a spot. We know lots of people in the same situation, and a few whose eligible kids WERE drawn in the lottery and subsequently went to the CES.

At our elementary, there was a substantial enough cohort of kids that were eligible but not drawn in the lottery that the school is now running a self-contained Enriched Literacy Curriculum class for 4th graders. From what we were told, it's the same curriculum used for literacy at the CES. It's definitely a big step up from what my kid was getting last year (virtually) and feels appropriately challenging for bright 4th graders.

THis is exactly what is suppose to happen going forward, minus the lottery. The CES should be a program for those that don’t have a big enough cohort at their own school. Otherwise, the cohort at home schools could utilize the Enriched Literacy and Math curriculum s.