Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Me and my family have been affected by my above issues with her. I have seen, heard, and witnessed enough to make the above statement.

I am sure there are other bad midwives out there but the point is this should not be a debate about home birth being safe. This is about one midwife making bad decisions.

She should not be burned at the stake but she should stop putting people's lives at risk.

Then should you not address this through proper channels rather than throwing out an anonymous accusation?

If you were damaged by her care, posting here is going to do nothing to prevent her from working with more women. If you want recourse go talk to the police.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Me and my family have been affected by my above issues with her. I have seen, heard, and witnessed enough to make the above statement.

I am sure there are other bad midwives out there but the point is this should not be a debate about home birth being safe. This is about one midwife making bad decisions.

She should not be burned at the stake but she should stop putting people's lives at risk.

Then should you not address this through proper channels rather than throwing out an anonymous accusation?

If you were damaged by her care, posting here is going to do nothing to prevent her from working with more women. If you want recourse go talk to the police.

That poster may well have already done so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Me and my family have been affected by my above issues with her. I have seen, heard, and witnessed enough to make the above statement.

I am sure there are other bad midwives out there but the point is this should not be a debate about home birth being safe. This is about one midwife making bad decisions.

She should not be burned at the stake but she should stop putting people's lives at risk.

Then should you not address this through proper channels rather than throwing out an anonymous accusation?

I agree. If the PP had a poor experience with KC, then hopefully she has thoroughly discussed it with KC herself, reported it, and pursued legal recourse. Posting anonymously in this forum just fuels the witch-hunt and is unhelpful.

My understanding, based on conversations directly with KC, is that her outcomes are very good. She is very open about the losses she has had - six or seven total, depending on how you count her statistics (yes, she includes this case). She also has a 3% cesarean rate, a 5% transfer rate, and serves women who are having twins, VBACs and breech babies.

It is astonishing to me how quickly people are willing to burn her at the stake, without knowing ANYTHING about her practice or how it compares to others who provide childbirth services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it me or is anyone else out there noticing that both camps are doing the same disservice to women? The ob/gyn medical community is terrible in violating informed consent, performing unnecessary medical procedures and not respecting their patients. I do not know one woman who was informed of the risks to subsequent pregnancies by a c-section or who was told the statistical probabilty of having a c-section if she had an induction. It does not matter if this is still the best course of action, the patient needs to be informed. Information is withheld from patients because the ob/gyn knows best. This treatment is causing women to reject hospitals and ob/gyns.

However, the homebirth community seems to be violating women's choice just as much. The homebirth community hushes any discussion of negative homebirth experiences. There is an interesting discussion on mothering.com regarding speaking up about bad homebirth experiences being taboo. Women who have had bad homebirths report feeling blamed by their midwives for the bad outcome. Women are only told about positive homebirth experiences not the negative ones. This is no better than the ob/gyn practice of telling you that your baby will die if you do not ..insert anything not critical. The homebirth community is no different than the ob/gyn community in pushing their approach onto women and not allowing true informed consent.

Maternal and fetal outcomes would be better if a rationale blending of both approaches was available. If informed consent was actually respected women would be more knowledgable about the true risks, better able mentally prepare for complications, and have a better overall experience. Women are not children or sheep. We don't need to be led by arrogant ob/gyns or mid wives.

Great posts, articulates many of my thoughts which I am not able to express nearly as well!

I agree with this too. I have had one home birth and one hospital birth, and this is a great summary of the problems with both sides. On the home birth side, having been on mothering.com for a few years and knowing home birth folks, I can tell you that there is a lot of "trust birth" and magical thinking and a lot of feeling sorry for women who end up needing medical interventions, but not real empathy, more "there for the grace of God" and also a lot of questioning and tacitly assuming that they must have done something wrong to have a less than ideal outcome. Not everyone is like this of course, there are plenty of great women with their heads screwed on straight, but there is just enough knee-jerk anti-medicine stuff and overidealizing of home birth to lend credence to the stereotypes.

[Anonymous]

Wait -- so if you have a good experience with KC and are happy with her telling you her statistics (based in fact?) then you are free to anonymously post on DCUM.

But if have had a bad experience then you should....well keep your mouth shut. Because somehow your experience is less valid than the others?

IN SERVICE TO WOMEN my ass!

Perhaps she did complain to NARM and MANA and KC. Considering how many certifications they have pulled it seems like there is no recourse for these women who have a bad experience with midwives. Perhaps it is because of this woman (and others) that the authorities have finally decided to look at what is going wrong with this midwife.

Why is it that we are supposed to only believe anonymous posters who have good to say about KC but he ones who have something bad to say are on a witch hunt?

[Anonymous]

All the references to "witchhunt" are amazing to me. Ms. Carr has had the benefit of due process of law. She pled guilty to FELONIES. Yes, she is being investigated in other jurisdictions and it doesn't look good for her. However, she is innocent until proven guilty in those cases.

BUT, I think she is harming her own credibility by using the media to propound on her points of view and the "trauma" she has endured. Now , if she had been found innocent of the charges, I would feel differently.

[Anonymous]

Sounds to me like Carr is “great” when things would go right no matter what, but the minute things go wrong, she lacks everything required to attempt to improve matters (and even makes them worse).

If you fail someone’s bleeding to death and you neglect to take them to the hospital to be stitched up and they die, you’re still at fault for their death even if they were a hemophiliac – so saying that nothing could have saved that child (whether that’s true or not), doesn’t exonerate this woman from what she did wrong - without ever bothering to get and maintain a license, no less.

As for how she treated the quoted former client who felt Carr wasn’t present, gave her drugs, and bolted: sounds like every evil OB chastised here! And imploring her NOT to tell docs that she had Pitocin in her system because she hadn’t been allowed to administer it?! Yeah… real safe… and moral. Truly epitomizes the moral high-ground. Suuuuuure. But no, Carr doesn’t let “covering her ass” color ANY of her judgement.

“They both said everything was going well, until it wasn’t.” Yeah, see, that’s the kind of shit that hits the fan in birthin’ babies.

“the baby was doing better, and the ambulance was sent away. Some hours later, the baby started going down again, so I brought the baby to the hospital. And it didn’t make it,” Carr said. “I’m not sure what happened to that baby, why it wasn’t breathing.” “ You know who WOULD have known what was up with that baby? The NICU. The minute it struggled, it would have gone there and been monitored so this didn’t get a chance to happen. They wouldn’t have been turned away if the baby was suddenly doing better without looking for cause and observing closely to prevent recurring. Oh, the evil hospital “taking” your baby to the life-saving unit. And great follow-up so you can LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE, Carr.

And $3,200 per delivery is LESS than a hospital??? If you’re insured for preg and cb, it’s similar, if not WAY more.

Really tired of reading “we don’t know enough about the case”. Perhaps – but people here are judging what we DO know, which isn’t all that little. Seems like most details have come out. No medical professional approves of how this went down and that it wasn’t avoidable, and midwives are SPLIT on it. Sounds like opinions on this thread aren’t all that 50/50.

For NO OTHER SERVICE is there such a proud and blatant dissociation from laws and licensure. Midwives like Karen Carr do no favors to their movement and disgustingly take advantage of the vulnerability and “magical” thing that is giving birth. Way to go. And if it makes you so mad that an OB wouldn’t be facing the same persecution, then fight so that they do – not so that everyone gets such a supposed “pass”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sounds to me like Carr is “great” when things would go right no matter what, but the minute things go wrong, she lacks everything required to attempt to improve matters (and even makes them worse).

If you fail someone’s bleeding to death and you neglect to take them to the hospital to be stitched up and they die, you’re still at fault for their death even if they were a hemophiliac – so saying that nothing could have saved that child (whether that’s true or not), doesn’t exonerate this woman from what she did wrong - without ever bothering to get and maintain a license, no less.

As for how she treated the quoted former client who felt Carr wasn’t present, gave her drugs, and bolted: sounds like every evil OB chastised here! And imploring her NOT to tell docs that she had Pitocin in her system because she hadn’t been allowed to administer it?! Yeah… real safe… and moral. Truly epitomizes the moral high-ground. Suuuuuure. But no, Carr doesn’t let “covering her ass” color ANY of her judgement.

“They both said everything was going well, until it wasn’t.” Yeah, see, that’s the kind of shit that hits the fan in birthin’ babies.

“the baby was doing better, and the ambulance was sent away. Some hours later, the baby started going down again, so I brought the baby to the hospital. And it didn’t make it,” Carr said. “I’m not sure what happened to that baby, why it wasn’t breathing.” “ You know who WOULD have known what was up with that baby? The NICU. The minute it struggled, it would have gone there and been monitored so this didn’t get a chance to happen. They wouldn’t have been turned away if the baby was suddenly doing better without looking for cause and observing closely to prevent recurring. Oh, the evil hospital “taking” your baby to the life-saving unit. And great follow-up so you can LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE, Carr.

And $3,200 per delivery is LESS than a hospital??? If you’re insured for preg and cb, it’s similar, if not WAY more.

Really tired of reading “we don’t know enough about the case”. Perhaps – but people here are judging what we DO know, which isn’t all that little. Seems like most details have come out. No medical professional approves of how this went down and that it wasn’t avoidable, and midwives are SPLIT on it. Sounds like opinions on this thread aren’t all that 50/50.

For NO OTHER SERVICE is there such a proud and blatant dissociation from laws and licensure. Midwives like Karen Carr do no favors to their movement and disgustingly take advantage of the vulnerability and “magical” thing that is giving birth. Way to go. And if it makes you so mad that an OB wouldn’t be facing the same persecution, then fight so that they do – not so that everyone gets such a supposed “pass”.

Posts like these are exactly why I used the term "witch hunt". People posting here are so overwhelmingly egotistical and arrogant that they cannot even comprehend the extent to which they DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS and have little to no understanding of the clients that CPMs typically serve.

This thread is rife with accusations, assumptions, lies and mockery about Karen Carr, CPMs, homebirths, and the women who choose homebirth over hospital birth. The whole thing is disgusting and many of the women here should be ashamed of themselves. The thing is, as mothers WE ALL want to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our babies. The choices we make do not harm other families, so why is it so difficult to allow others their choices, even if we personally would not make the same ones? Myself, I do not necessarily agree with the mother's choice but I am very much a fan of individual choice and the government staying OUT of our health care decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait -- so if you have a good experience with KC and are happy with her telling you her statistics (based in fact?) then you are free to anonymously post on DCUM.

But if have had a bad experience then you should....well keep your mouth shut. Because somehow your experience is less valid than the others?

IN SERVICE TO WOMEN my ass!

Perhaps she did complain to NARM and MANA and KC. Considering how many certifications they have pulled it seems like there is no recourse for these women who have a bad experience with midwives. Perhaps it is because of this woman (and others) that the authorities have finally decided to look at what is going wrong with this midwife.

Why is it that we are supposed to only believe anonymous posters who have good to say about KC but he ones who have something bad to say are on a witch hunt?

Nobody told this person to shut up. In fact, quite the opposite is true. S/He was told to talk to the authorities...to actually do something and be proactive. If there truly was negligence by KC while attending this family...it should be pursued via the proper channels where all sides have the opportunity to speak. Posting an incredibly vague accusation anonymously on a chat board only creates skepticism of the author's truthfulness and intentions.

And yes, there is a big difference between posting something positive and posting something negative...even the law recognizes this (ie libel, slander etc .).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds to me like Carr is “great” when things would go right no matter what, but the minute things go wrong, she lacks everything required to attempt to improve matters (and even makes them worse).

If you fail someone’s bleeding to death and you neglect to take them to the hospital to be stitched up and they die, you’re still at fault for their death even if they were a hemophiliac – so saying that nothing could have saved that child (whether that’s true or not), doesn’t exonerate this woman from what she did wrong - without ever bothering to get and maintain a license, no less.

As for how she treated the quoted former client who felt Carr wasn’t present, gave her drugs, and bolted: sounds like every evil OB chastised here! And imploring her NOT to tell docs that she had Pitocin in her system because she hadn’t been allowed to administer it?! Yeah… real safe… and moral. Truly epitomizes the moral high-ground. Suuuuuure. But no, Carr doesn’t let “covering her ass” color ANY of her judgement.

“They both said everything was going well, until it wasn’t.” Yeah, see, that’s the kind of shit that hits the fan in birthin’ babies.

“the baby was doing better, and the ambulance was sent away. Some hours later, the baby started going down again, so I brought the baby to the hospital. And it didn’t make it,” Carr said. “I’m not sure what happened to that baby, why it wasn’t breathing.” “ You know who WOULD have known what was up with that baby? The NICU. The minute it struggled, it would have gone there and been monitored so this didn’t get a chance to happen. They wouldn’t have been turned away if the baby was suddenly doing better without looking for cause and observing closely to prevent recurring. Oh, the evil hospital “taking” your baby to the life-saving unit. And great follow-up so you can LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE, Carr.

And $3,200 per delivery is LESS than a hospital??? If you’re insured for preg and cb, it’s similar, if not WAY more.

Really tired of reading “we don’t know enough about the case”. Perhaps – but people here are judging what we DO know, which isn’t all that little. Seems like most details have come out. No medical professional approves of how this went down and that it wasn’t avoidable, and midwives are SPLIT on it. Sounds like opinions on this thread aren’t all that 50/50.

For NO OTHER SERVICE is there such a proud and blatant dissociation from laws and licensure. Midwives like Karen Carr do no favors to their movement and disgustingly take advantage of the vulnerability and “magical” thing that is giving birth. Way to go. And if it makes you so mad that an OB wouldn’t be facing the same persecution, then fight so that they do – not so that everyone gets such a supposed “pass”.

Posts like these are exactly why I used the term "witch hunt". People posting here are so overwhelmingly egotistical and arrogant that they cannot even comprehend the extent to which they DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS and have little to no understanding of the clients that CPMs typically serve.

This thread is rife with accusations, assumptions, lies and mockery about Karen Carr, CPMs, homebirths, and the women who choose homebirth over hospital birth. The whole thing is disgusting and many of the women here should be ashamed of themselves. The thing is, as mothers WE ALL want to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our babies. The choices we make do not harm other families, so why is it so difficult to allow others their choices, even if we personally would not make the same ones? Myself, I do not necessarily agree with the mother's choice but I am very much a fan of individual choice and the government staying OUT of our health care decisions.

Yes, yes YES!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds to me like Carr is “great” when things would go right no matter what, but the minute things go wrong, she lacks everything required to attempt to improve matters (and even makes them worse).

If you fail someone’s bleeding to death and you neglect to take them to the hospital to be stitched up and they die, you’re still at fault for their death even if they were a hemophiliac – so saying that nothing could have saved that child (whether that’s true or not), doesn’t exonerate this woman from what she did wrong - without ever bothering to get and maintain a license, no less.

As for how she treated the quoted former client who felt Carr wasn’t present, gave her drugs, and bolted: sounds like every evil OB chastised here! And imploring her NOT to tell docs that she had Pitocin in her system because she hadn’t been allowed to administer it?! Yeah… real safe… and moral. Truly epitomizes the moral high-ground. Suuuuuure. But no, Carr doesn’t let “covering her ass” color ANY of her judgement.

“They both said everything was going well, until it wasn’t.” Yeah, see, that’s the kind of shit that hits the fan in birthin’ babies.

“the baby was doing better, and the ambulance was sent away. Some hours later, the baby started going down again, so I brought the baby to the hospital. And it didn’t make it,” Carr said. “I’m not sure what happened to that baby, why it wasn’t breathing.” “ You know who WOULD have known what was up with that baby? The NICU. The minute it struggled, it would have gone there and been monitored so this didn’t get a chance to happen. They wouldn’t have been turned away if the baby was suddenly doing better without looking for cause and observing closely to prevent recurring. Oh, the evil hospital “taking” your baby to the life-saving unit. And great follow-up so you can LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE, Carr.

And $3,200 per delivery is LESS than a hospital??? If you’re insured for preg and cb, it’s similar, if not WAY more.

Really tired of reading “we don’t know enough about the case”. Perhaps – but people here are judging what we DO know, which isn’t all that little. Seems like most details have come out. No medical professional approves of how this went down and that it wasn’t avoidable, and midwives are SPLIT on it. Sounds like opinions on this thread aren’t all that 50/50.

For NO OTHER SERVICE is there such a proud and blatant dissociation from laws and licensure. Midwives like Karen Carr do no favors to their movement and disgustingly take advantage of the vulnerability and “magical” thing that is giving birth. Way to go. And if it makes you so mad that an OB wouldn’t be facing the same persecution, then fight so that they do – not so that everyone gets such a supposed “pass”.

Posts like these are exactly why I used the term "witch hunt". People posting here are so overwhelmingly egotistical and arrogant that they cannot even comprehend the extent to which they DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS and have little to no understanding of the clients that CPMs typically serve.

This thread is rife with accusations, assumptions, lies and mockery about Karen Carr, CPMs, homebirths, and the women who choose homebirth over hospital birth. The whole thing is disgusting and many of the women here should be ashamed of themselves. The thing is, as mothers WE ALL want to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our babies. The choices we make do not harm other families, so why is it so difficult to allow others their choices, even if we personally would not make the same ones? Myself, I do not necessarily agree with the mother's choice but I am very much a fan of individual choice and the government staying OUT of our health care decisions.

AGREE! AGREE! AGREE! Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Who said anything about the government making peoples' health care decisions for them??!!

The argument is that there should be a way to regulate those who provide health care so that consumers can actually make INFORMED choices based on outcomes and provider competence. How could this not benefit ALL women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who said anything about the government making peoples' health care decisions for them??!!

The argument is that there should be a way to regulate those who provide health care so that consumers can actually make INFORMED choices based on outcomes and provider competence. How could this not benefit ALL women?

Those who advocate against CPMs/DEMs are trying to take away that option...an option that many families want and do choose.

There ARE regulations in place and there is an oversight. In VA, CPMs are regulated by the legislature and overseen by the VA Board of Medicine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who said anything about the government making peoples' health care decisions for them??!!

The argument is that there should be a way to regulate those who provide health care so that consumers can actually make INFORMED choices based on outcomes and provider competence. How could this not benefit ALL women?

Those who advocate against CPMs/DEMs are trying to take away that option...an option that many families want and do choose.

There ARE regulations in place and there is an oversight. In VA, CPMs are regulated by the legislature and overseen by the VA Board of Medicine.

What does DEM stand for, I'm not familiar with that term?

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. You are stating that there IS oversight and regulation of CPM's in VA, yet of course KC would not be accountable to that oversight since she practices without licensure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who said anything about the government making peoples' health care decisions for them??!!

The argument is that there should be a way to regulate those who provide health care so that consumers can actually make INFORMED choices based on outcomes and provider competence. How could this not benefit ALL women?

Those who advocate against CPMs/DEMs are trying to take away that option...an option that many families want and do choose.

There ARE regulations in place and there is an oversight. In VA, CPMs are regulated by the legislature and overseen by the VA Board of Medicine.

What does DEM stand for, I'm not familiar with that term?

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. You are stating that there IS oversight and regulation of CPM's in VA, yet of course KC would not be accountable to that oversight since she practices without licensure.

DEM = Direct entry midwife

When a MW is practicing without a license, the criminal justice system steps in which exactly what happened here.