Current MCPS language immersion programs are incredibly classist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I'm sure most apply to these programs for the language immersion experience, I wonder how many apply for other reasons--capped class size, access to the different "pyramid" an earlier poster mentioned, etc. In this case their main goal is to escape the "general MCPS" system rather than the language immersion (though that's what they accept for the benefits they perceive).

I would love to know this information. It would put the question to rest about whether all families are trying to escape their "bad" school pyramid for a "good" one. We are only in K, so we haven't gotten to know a lot of the families yet, but the ones we do know have entered the program for the language benefits and not the school pyramid. Again, we aren't at RCF, so the proportion of families who apply for the school pyramid may be different there.

I do know one family who entered the lottery to escape a perceived bad elementary. They are at Maryvale FI now. It does happen. I don't think it happens to the extent that many DCUM posters think it does.

Maybe those running the evaluation of choice programs in MCPS should do the survey of current parents or even parents that applied for the immersion lottery and didn't get in to see how many applied for benefits other than language.

No one admits that they apply to escape their own school, at least not directly. I can tell you that are RCF a really high number of the immersion students live in the DCC. Take that for what you will.

Oh good grief. RCF is also the most convenient Spanish option for many parts of the DCC. We ended up not applying for immersion but when we were looking at the options, RCF and SCES (for French) were the only options that would have worked logisitcally work for us. We live in Silver Spring and both work so our kids need to go to before/aftercare, and Burnt Mills and WIlliam Page are both in the opposite direction of our commutes. And then if the younger DC didn't get in it would have complicated things further. Personally I would have preferred dual immersion (but not enough to pick up and move in bounds for it) or simply starting language instruction in ES for everyone like is common in many other countries. If I had wanted to "escape" the DCC then I would have bought a condo in Bethesda to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the original motivation was to bring higher income kids into lower income schools but that isn't how it necessarily plays out. I am in the DCC and many parents want their kids to go to Rock Creek Forest so that they continue on to Westland and BCC instead of the DCC middle and high schools. So it is really drawing higher income DCC kids into RCF to avoid schools like Einstein, etc. Kind of the opposite of what was intended.

And what is happening with the Spanish language immersion program at BCC? Anything with all the high school program changes underway?

What Spanish immersion program at BCC?

[Anonymous]

Original post didn’t age well. So many inaccuracies. We left a “better pyramid” school because we believe in immersion and learning another language. And no, our sibling child didn’t automatically get in. There is no longer a sibling link. I know of two other families who also had separated siblings that kept reapplying every year until their children could be at the same immersion school eventually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Original post didn’t age well. So many inaccuracies. We left a “better pyramid” school because we believe in immersion and learning another language. And no, our sibling child didn’t automatically get in. There is no longer a sibling link. I know of two other families who also had separated siblings that kept reapplying every year until their children could be at the same immersion school eventually.

Yes, this has been our experience too. We are in Silver Spring but we know multiple Bethesda families at our immersion program. And it seems like siblings get in the program maybe 30-40% of the time. Some families send siblings to any immersion program and are happy enough to send them to different schools -- they really want immersion. Other families COSA the younger siblings in and just want them at the same school, even if it's "lower performing" than their home school, because they want their kids at the same place. There is a huge range. Absolutely I know people who don't feel great about their home school, and that was a factor in their applying for immersion. But it's hardly the dominant situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Original post didn’t age well. So many inaccuracies. We left a “better pyramid” school because we believe in immersion and learning another language. And no, our sibling child didn’t automatically get in. There is no longer a sibling link. I know of two other families who also had separated siblings that kept reapplying every year until their children could be at the same immersion school eventually.

This is kind of a funny comment. The OP didn't age well because MCPS took deliberate steps to change the system as a result of valid concerns regarding access to language immersion programs. There was literally a 200+ page report that looked at these and other issues: https://bethesdamagazine.com/2016/03/10/study-on-mcps-magnet-programs-high-school-consortia-suggests-changes-to-improve-opportunities-for-students-from-low-income-families/

Oh, and I found the citation folks were looking for above regarding the percentage of kids who benefited from the sibling link. It was actually not low at all:

"First, data on implementation of the sibling link in elementary language immersion programs
show that almost a third of students (29.8%) who were admitted to the programs through the
lottery in 2013–14 were siblings. The proportion was as high as 45.8% for some programs. This
sibling link hinders equity of access for non-siblings because it reduces the total number of seats
that are available."

[Anonymous]

Great. Stale data from 2013.

[Anonymous]

I don't know that we will have to worry about the language immersion programs much longer - Taylor is doing away with every high quality program that we have. I think the CES programs and language immersion programs will be on the chopping block in a couple of years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great. Stale data from 2013.

The data was from 2014 and the article was published in 2016.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I'm sure most apply to these programs for the language immersion experience, I wonder how many apply for other reasons--capped class size, access to the different "pyramid" an earlier poster mentioned, etc. In this case their main goal is to escape the "general MCPS" system rather than the language immersion (though that's what they accept for the benefits they perceive).

I would love to know this information. It would put the question to rest about whether all families are trying to escape their "bad" school pyramid for a "good" one. We are only in K, so we haven't gotten to know a lot of the families yet, but the ones we do know have entered the program for the language benefits and not the school pyramid. Again, we aren't at RCF, so the proportion of families who apply for the school pyramid may be different there.

I do know one family who entered the lottery to escape a perceived bad elementary. They are at Maryvale FI now. It does happen. I don't think it happens to the extent that many DCUM posters think it does.

Maybe those running the evaluation of choice programs in MCPS should do the survey of current parents or even parents that applied for the immersion lottery and didn't get in to see how many applied for benefits other than language.

No one admits that they apply to escape their own school, at least not directly. I can tell you that are RCF a really high number of the immersion students live in the DCC. Take that for what you will.

Maybe they would admit it in an anonymous survey.

We know one family at RCF who is planning on bringing their kid back to their home school for HS b/c they prefer the DCC over their perception of the BCC. So not all families from the DCC are going to RCF for the pyramid. Some (hopefully most) really do think full Spanish immersion is good for language development.

Immersion participation has no impact on high school placement. You can attend the immersion program through middle school, then you return to your home high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"This whole argument against immersion is arguing from the position of the haves being content in there situation and not wanting any others in there zone"

Nope. Some of us are also in DCC but find it extremely unfair that neighbors that knew about the program in time to apply won a huge lottery ticket for their entire family's education in MCPS. it is just extremely unfair.

I believe this is why MCPS already did away with sibling preference. This is no longer how the immersion lotteries work, and I think they did away with this for equity reasons. There are still a few kids who get in if a sibling was enrolled prior to 2017 (I think?) but that number is dwindling. It is very common for one family to have a kid who got in and kids who did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great. Stale data from 2013.

The data was from 2014 and the article was published in 2016.

....and this thread is from 2015. Yes, there used to be a pretty significant issue with the language immersion programs, and it's not wrong to say class was part of the issue. At the time this thread was started, immersion programs were functionally word-of-mouth. By the time most families found out about the lottery, it had already taken place. The big public push for kindy registration is in the spring, but you needed to have your kid registered for kindergarten and in the lottery by late winter.

Later, MCPS changed it to align, which made a difference.

[Anonymous]

I’m a DCC parent whose kids (plural) went to RCF. We chose it because of the language opportunity and it was close to our house. None of my kids went on to Westland or BCC because I wanted their peer group to be from our neighborhood and didn’t want them to feel “poor” if they went to school with kids who vacation in Aspen etc. Plus there wasnt much of an immersion program past fifth grade anyway. Just a data point- there were others of us who didn’t choose RCF SI just to escape our home school, and didn’t take anyone’s spot in MS or HS!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a DCC parent whose kids (plural) went to RCF. We chose it because of the language opportunity and it was close to our house. None of my kids went on to Westland or BCC because I wanted their peer group to be from our neighborhood and didn’t want them to feel “poor” if they went to school with kids who vacation in Aspen etc. Plus there wasnt much of an immersion program past fifth grade anyway. Just a data point- there were others of us who didn’t choose RCF SI just to escape our home school, and didn’t take anyone’s spot in MS or HS!

Yah but not many. Most used it as an opt out of silver spring schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a DCC parent whose kids (plural) went to RCF. We chose it because of the language opportunity and it was close to our house. None of my kids went on to Westland or BCC because I wanted their peer group to be from our neighborhood and didn’t want them to feel “poor” if they went to school with kids who vacation in Aspen etc. Plus there wasnt much of an immersion program past fifth grade anyway. Just a data point- there were others of us who didn’t choose RCF SI just to escape our home school, and didn’t take anyone’s spot in MS or HS!

LOL at the notion that all Westland / BCC kids vacation in Aspen

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a DCC parent whose kids (plural) went to RCF. We chose it because of the language opportunity and it was close to our house. None of my kids went on to Westland or BCC because I wanted their peer group to be from our neighborhood and didn’t want them to feel “poor” if they went to school with kids who vacation in Aspen etc. Plus there wasnt much of an immersion program past fifth grade anyway. Just a data point- there were others of us who didn’t choose RCF SI just to escape our home school, and didn’t take anyone’s spot in MS or HS!

Yah but not many. Most used it as an opt out of silver spring schools

Do you have the actual stats on this? Because otherwise simply saying it over and over doesn't make it true. You sound like a troll. Language immersion can be a lot of work if there isn't already a foundation at home, this isn't a decision most families take lightly.

Ancedotally, the families I know who really wanted Bethesda schools but could only afford Silver Spring purposely live in the more affordable rentals in the Grubb Rd. neighborhood, zones for Rosemary Hills ES. This wasn't something they were going to chance a lottery for a program they weren't necessarily interested in to begin with.