The Other VA publics: CNU, GM, JMU, Radford, ODU, UMW, VCU

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know what percentage of in-state (or more specifically, FCPS) students accepted by UVa choose not to go? And, does anyone know the main reason(s)? Cost?

[Anonymous]

2017-2018 Data for Fairfax County

Applied - 3,095
Accepted - 1,212
Enrolled - 680

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:FWIW, the most recommended school (based on “If a friend or family member were considering going to university, based on your experience, how likely or unlikely are you to recommend your college or university to them?” Students gave their colleges a score between 0 and 10 with 0 being “not at all likely” and 10 being “extremely likely”) in the U.S. is JMU.

And VA Tech is #3.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/most-recommended-universities-united-states?fbclid=IwAR3suOP9qJvnaHhkgnB5EGSzNoW9PdtGKAc-WHW5C6G_zGGToflHqfkBi58#survey-answer

Covenant College is #5, so...

And Stanford is #2.

Right but Covenant College. Let me illustrate. List of great men: Lincoln, Ghandi, King, Hitler. Being on this list doesn’t say anything about JMU other than the kids like it. Great. Cool. They also love it at Covenant and Stanford and West Texas A&M and Montevallo and Yale. So what point are you trying to make?

Not the poster you are addressing, but I think the point she is trying to make is that JMU (as well as Stanford, and Covenant College) have environments that students seem to enjoy. Obviously Covenant College wouldn't appeal to most students, but if someone is looking for a religious college, knowing that most kids who go there liked it, would be valuable information to have.

Good point, though without knowing why they liked it I’m not sure there’s much value. Liked it because of a stimulating academic experience or easy classes and massive keggers?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My DD is a senior applying early action to JMU and CNU. She's undecided/arts/humanities. I'm hopeful she'll be accepted to both (4.2 weighted 1300 SAT), but she may have a tough decision to make. She likes both a lot but for different reasons. I'm reading this thread with interest...

Your daughter should apply to UVA. She'd be in the running.

I feel like it wouldn't be impossible, but it might be tough. Plus, she didn't even want to look at the school. We toured W&M though and she didn't like the vibe or the campus at all. Oh well!

Same with my kids. Similar stats as your DD, but uninterested in either UVA or W&M.

Uninterested, or unwilling to take the risk of applying and being rejected? If the latter, that's too bad. She'd be in the running.

For my daughter (the one with the stats listed above), she was just uninterested in UVA - I honestly couldn't tell you why and I don't feel the need to push it. Especially since she's undecided. I think JMU and CNU will suit her and her personality. She's smart and driven, but she works all the time and is so stressed. I think she probably feels like UVA would be a continuation of the stress/pressure/academically competitive attitudes of Fairfax County and I think she wants to take a step away from that and experience something different. She's applying to the honors colleges at both schools, so hopefully that will work out.

[Anonymous]

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Yes, but it's amazing that we have three public schools that cover top-notch flagship, SLAC and tech. And then a whole crop of other schools that are as good as or better than the 1 flagship in another state. I think the one challenging thing is that UVA + W&M in numbers total less than the numbers at another state flagship so it gets very competitive.

We are lucky in VA, but I do think there are better (and still affordable) options for the kids that just miss out on UVA/W&M. I can see why someone would want their kid with maybe a 4.1 and 1460 SAT (who might be rejected from UVA/W&M) to go to an OOS school with a national reputation over JMU or GMU. It wouldn't necessarily have a higher cost than W&M with its $35K price tag.

I'm the poster with the strong student who made clear she'd be very unhappy going below UVA in state. That was exactly her thinking, and fortunately we had the money to pay for her to go anywhere. We weren't willing to pay full freight for a private school (to us, that made no sense for anything lower than top 10-15), so we said we'd pay for a strong OOS flagship. She got into a good one, paid the deposit, and would have been happy to go. But she ended up getting into UVA off the waitlist so it all ended well.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Not everyone has the money to pay OOS, and frankly, it's often even harder to get admitted as an OOS. My kid is a very strong student, they technically have the numbers that would put them in range at UVA or WM, but that's not a guarantee with all of the other high achieving students applying. I really hate the attitude that you and you your daughter are fostering that if a bright student doesn't get the golden ticket or possess $$$ they're doomed.

I'm not suggesting that you're "doomed" if you can't get into William & Mary or UVA in state and have to settle for another in state school. There's nothing wrong with JMU, GMU, etc., it's just that the gap between UVA/W&M and the other VA schools in terms of admission is so great -- JMU truly doesn't mean "Just Missed UVA" -- that there are many, many great schools falling somewhere in between. For example, other than Northwestern a borderline UVA admit from in state is a likely admit to every Big 10 school, most of which are great, fun, and have national reputations. If you can afford them, why not? They're certainly less expensive than private schools.

That is absolutely not certain. Many privates are a heckuva lot cheaper than OOS B10 schools.

After merit aid, maybe, but the best privates typically don't offer merit aid. I'm talking about full price for a top ranked private versus full price for OOS Big Ten. Big Ten is always cheaper.

Ugh. I feel like you are being deliberately obtuse.

First off, getting into a top ranked private is probably as difficult to get into as getting into UVA or harder, so it's not worth including them in this example.
Second, even if we go with your assumption that the OOS Big Ten will always be cheaper than the top private... that OOS Big Ten is STILL more expensive than in state VA.
I have found a few exceptions...
University of Missouri: if you have a certain GPA + SAT/ACT score, they will essentially make up the difference in cost for OOS student and will admit the student.
University of Alabama has similar type of offer.
Unless you are talking about the OOS options that bring the level back down to in-state cost, it is frustrating to hear you keep hammering away at OOS option, like it the obvious choice and anyone should automatically do it if they don't get into UVA.
As multiple people on this thread have explained, many solidly middle class people are not going to qualify for need-based aid, and are also not going to be able to afford OOS options.

Um . . . neither Missouri nor Alabama are in the Big Ten -- or as good as virtually any Big Ten school.

I also never said that OOS Big Ten cost the same as UVA in state. I said they're more expensive than in state UVA but less expensive than private but may still be worth the extra money over the other in state VA options because the Big Ten schools are better (generally) than those options.

Not being obtuse, deliberate or otherwise. I understand that some folks don't have the money to go OOS Big Ten and settle instead for JMU etc. That's fine.

DP. You are truly missing the point if you think students "settle" for JMU, etc. Many kids CHOOSE JMU over other, more widely recognized schools. Why? Because it's a great fit for them. JMU offers something for everyone. It's clear you can't imagine someone choosing JMU (or VT, or GMU, etc.) over your "Big Ten" wish list, but that's just ridiculous. My kids wouldn't want anything to do with a Big Ten school. Your first choice (or rather, your CHILD's first choice - hopefully) isn't at all what my kids' would be. Some people go for the right fit, period.

only 29 percent of applicants who were accepted to JMU enrolled. 71 percent went elsewhere. not a first choice for many.

Not a very telling stat.

William & Mary has the same percentages (29% enrolled and 71% went elsewhere)
UVA (38% enrolled and 62% went elsewhere)
GMU (22% enrolled and 78% went elsewhere)

You're mixing apples and oranges. UVA and William & Mary get huge numbers of applications from out of state from students with Ivy League caliber credentials, and obviously most of them have many other elite options besides UVA (and money, obviously). A more telling statistic is the yield from Fairfax County itself:

UVA 56.1 percent
W&M: 37.2 percent
JMU 32.1 percent

Clearly UVA is the preferred college in Fairfax, by far.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My DD is a senior applying early action to JMU and CNU. She's undecided/arts/humanities. I'm hopeful she'll be accepted to both (4.2 weighted 1300 SAT), but she may have a tough decision to make. She likes both a lot but for different reasons. I'm reading this thread with interest...

Your daughter should apply to UVA. She'd be in the running.

I feel like it wouldn't be impossible, but it might be tough. Plus, she didn't even want to look at the school. We toured W&M though and she didn't like the vibe or the campus at all. Oh well!

Same with my kids. Similar stats as your DD, but uninterested in either UVA or W&M.

Uninterested, or unwilling to take the risk of applying and being rejected? If the latter, that's too bad. She'd be in the running.

For my daughter (the one with the stats listed above), she was just uninterested in UVA - I honestly couldn't tell you why and I don't feel the need to push it. Especially since she's undecided. I think JMU and CNU will suit her and her personality. She's smart and driven, but she works all the time and is so stressed. I think she probably feels like UVA would be a continuation of the stress/pressure/academically competitive attitudes of Fairfax County and I think she wants to take a step away from that and experience something different. She's applying to the honors colleges at both schools, so hopefully that will work out.

Ok. I can see why she wouldn't be interested in the W&M pressure cooker, but I've had two go to UVA and it wasn't like that for them. It was easy, but they did well, made good friends, and had a great time. And now they have a UVA diploma.

[Anonymous]

PP, I mean it "wasn't" easy!

[Anonymous]

Came across this site that I found interesting in comparing the universities
https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=University+of+Mary+Washington&with=James+Madison+University

You can put in any two colleges and see, among people accepted to both, which they chose. Comparing JMU to the others...

Strong preference for JMU vs. UMW, GMU

Even split vs JMU - VCU, CNU

Strong preference against JMU - UVA, W&M, VT

[Anonymous]

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Yes, but it's amazing that we have three public schools that cover top-notch flagship, SLAC and tech. And then a whole crop of other schools that are as good as or better than the 1 flagship in another state. I think the one challenging thing is that UVA + W&M in numbers total less than the numbers at another state flagship so it gets very competitive.

We are lucky in VA, but I do think there are better (and still affordable) options for the kids that just miss out on UVA/W&M. I can see why someone would want their kid with maybe a 4.1 and 1460 SAT (who might be rejected from UVA/W&M) to go to an OOS school with a national reputation over JMU or GMU. It wouldn't necessarily have a higher cost than W&M with its $35K price tag.

I'm the poster with the strong student who made clear she'd be very unhappy going below UVA in state. That was exactly her thinking, and fortunately we had the money to pay for her to go anywhere. We weren't willing to pay full freight for a private school (to us, that made no sense for anything lower than top 10-15), so we said we'd pay for a strong OOS flagship. She got into a good one, paid the deposit, and would have been happy to go. But she ended up getting into UVA off the waitlist so it all ended well.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Not everyone has the money to pay OOS, and frankly, it's often even harder to get admitted as an OOS. My kid is a very strong student, they technically have the numbers that would put them in range at UVA or WM, but that's not a guarantee with all of the other high achieving students applying. I really hate the attitude that you and you your daughter are fostering that if a bright student doesn't get the golden ticket or possess $$$ they're doomed.

I'm not suggesting that you're "doomed" if you can't get into William & Mary or UVA in state and have to settle for another in state school. There's nothing wrong with JMU, GMU, etc., it's just that the gap between UVA/W&M and the other VA schools in terms of admission is so great -- JMU truly doesn't mean "Just Missed UVA" -- that there are many, many great schools falling somewhere in between. For example, other than Northwestern a borderline UVA admit from in state is a likely admit to every Big 10 school, most of which are great, fun, and have national reputations. If you can afford them, why not? They're certainly less expensive than private schools.

That is absolutely not certain. Many privates are a heckuva lot cheaper than OOS B10 schools.

After merit aid, maybe, but the best privates typically don't offer merit aid. I'm talking about full price for a top ranked private versus full price for OOS Big Ten. Big Ten is always cheaper.

Ugh. I feel like you are being deliberately obtuse.

First off, getting into a top ranked private is probably as difficult to get into as getting into UVA or harder, so it's not worth including them in this example.
Second, even if we go with your assumption that the OOS Big Ten will always be cheaper than the top private... that OOS Big Ten is STILL more expensive than in state VA.
I have found a few exceptions...
University of Missouri: if you have a certain GPA + SAT/ACT score, they will essentially make up the difference in cost for OOS student and will admit the student.
University of Alabama has similar type of offer.
Unless you are talking about the OOS options that bring the level back down to in-state cost, it is frustrating to hear you keep hammering away at OOS option, like it the obvious choice and anyone should automatically do it if they don't get into UVA.
As multiple people on this thread have explained, many solidly middle class people are not going to qualify for need-based aid, and are also not going to be able to afford OOS options.

Um . . . neither Missouri nor Alabama are in the Big Ten -- or as good as virtually any Big Ten school.

I also never said that OOS Big Ten cost the same as UVA in state. I said they're more expensive than in state UVA but less expensive than private but may still be worth the extra money over the other in state VA options because the Big Ten schools are better (generally) than those options.

Not being obtuse, deliberate or otherwise. I understand that some folks don't have the money to go OOS Big Ten and settle instead for JMU etc. That's fine.

DP. You are truly missing the point if you think students "settle" for JMU, etc. Many kids CHOOSE JMU over other, more widely recognized schools. Why? Because it's a great fit for them. JMU offers something for everyone. It's clear you can't imagine someone choosing JMU (or VT, or GMU, etc.) over your "Big Ten" wish list, but that's just ridiculous. My kids wouldn't want anything to do with a Big Ten school. Your first choice (or rather, your CHILD's first choice - hopefully) isn't at all what my kids' would be. Some people go for the right fit, period.

only 29 percent of applicants who were accepted to JMU enrolled. 71 percent went elsewhere. not a first choice for many.

Not a very telling stat.

William & Mary has the same percentages (29% enrolled and 71% went elsewhere)
UVA (38% enrolled and 62% went elsewhere)
GMU (22% enrolled and 78% went elsewhere)

Students apply to more schools now so mathematically, yield has to go down on average. I think if you look at long term data in SCHEV, it might be true for every school.

[Anonymous]

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Yes, but it's amazing that we have three public schools that cover top-notch flagship, SLAC and tech. And then a whole crop of other schools that are as good as or better than the 1 flagship in another state. I think the one challenging thing is that UVA + W&M in numbers total less than the numbers at another state flagship so it gets very competitive.

We are lucky in VA, but I do think there are better (and still affordable) options for the kids that just miss out on UVA/W&M. I can see why someone would want their kid with maybe a 4.1 and 1460 SAT (who might be rejected from UVA/W&M) to go to an OOS school with a national reputation over JMU or GMU. It wouldn't necessarily have a higher cost than W&M with its $35K price tag.

I'm the poster with the strong student who made clear she'd be very unhappy going below UVA in state. That was exactly her thinking, and fortunately we had the money to pay for her to go anywhere. We weren't willing to pay full freight for a private school (to us, that made no sense for anything lower than top 10-15), so we said we'd pay for a strong OOS flagship. She got into a good one, paid the deposit, and would have been happy to go. But she ended up getting into UVA off the waitlist so it all ended well.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Not everyone has the money to pay OOS, and frankly, it's often even harder to get admitted as an OOS. My kid is a very strong student, they technically have the numbers that would put them in range at UVA or WM, but that's not a guarantee with all of the other high achieving students applying. I really hate the attitude that you and you your daughter are fostering that if a bright student doesn't get the golden ticket or possess $$$ they're doomed.

I'm not suggesting that you're "doomed" if you can't get into William & Mary or UVA in state and have to settle for another in state school. There's nothing wrong with JMU, GMU, etc., it's just that the gap between UVA/W&M and the other VA schools in terms of admission is so great -- JMU truly doesn't mean "Just Missed UVA" -- that there are many, many great schools falling somewhere in between. For example, other than Northwestern a borderline UVA admit from in state is a likely admit to every Big 10 school, most of which are great, fun, and have national reputations. If you can afford them, why not? They're certainly less expensive than private schools.

That is absolutely not certain. Many privates are a heckuva lot cheaper than OOS B10 schools.

After merit aid, maybe, but the best privates typically don't offer merit aid. I'm talking about full price for a top ranked private versus full price for OOS Big Ten. Big Ten is always cheaper.

Ugh. I feel like you are being deliberately obtuse.

First off, getting into a top ranked private is probably as difficult to get into as getting into UVA or harder, so it's not worth including them in this example.
Second, even if we go with your assumption that the OOS Big Ten will always be cheaper than the top private... that OOS Big Ten is STILL more expensive than in state VA.
I have found a few exceptions...
University of Missouri: if you have a certain GPA + SAT/ACT score, they will essentially make up the difference in cost for OOS student and will admit the student.
University of Alabama has similar type of offer.
Unless you are talking about the OOS options that bring the level back down to in-state cost, it is frustrating to hear you keep hammering away at OOS option, like it the obvious choice and anyone should automatically do it if they don't get into UVA.
As multiple people on this thread have explained, many solidly middle class people are not going to qualify for need-based aid, and are also not going to be able to afford OOS options.

Um . . . neither Missouri nor Alabama are in the Big Ten -- or as good as virtually any Big Ten school.

I also never said that OOS Big Ten cost the same as UVA in state. I said they're more expensive than in state UVA but less expensive than private but may still be worth the extra money over the other in state VA options because the Big Ten schools are better (generally) than those options.

Not being obtuse, deliberate or otherwise. I understand that some folks don't have the money to go OOS Big Ten and settle instead for JMU etc. That's fine.

DP. You are truly missing the point if you think students "settle" for JMU, etc. Many kids CHOOSE JMU over other, more widely recognized schools. Why? Because it's a great fit for them. JMU offers something for everyone. It's clear you can't imagine someone choosing JMU (or VT, or GMU, etc.) over your "Big Ten" wish list, but that's just ridiculous. My kids wouldn't want anything to do with a Big Ten school. Your first choice (or rather, your CHILD's first choice - hopefully) isn't at all what my kids' would be. Some people go for the right fit, period.

only 29 percent of applicants who were accepted to JMU enrolled. 71 percent went elsewhere. not a first choice for many.

Not a very telling stat.

William & Mary has the same percentages (29% enrolled and 71% went elsewhere)
UVA (38% enrolled and 62% went elsewhere)
GMU (22% enrolled and 78% went elsewhere)

Students apply to more schools now so mathematically, yield has to go down on average. I think if you look at long term data in SCHEV, it might be true for every school.

Yield is a very indirect indicator. Caltech has a lower yield than MIT and there is a significant applicant overlap, so in that sense it is less popular, but Caltech has a lot less spots to fill and actually has higher standardized test scores so that shouldn't be translated as being less selective.

I suspect the applicant overlap for the top Virginia schools is pretty large. UVA is likely favored head-to-head. W&M has fewer spots to fill so usually ends up with very similar stats for enrolled students (perhaps considered more of a niche school). Virginia Tech probably is significantly more competitive against UVA and W&M for engineering admits than overall. The other schools are probably looking at significant fit factors (e.g. location) or honors programs or merit factoring in their selection.

Virginia does have a good variety of schools. UVA is the most comprehensive overall, but VT is much more comprehensive in engineering. W&M, MWU, and CNU are more residential and liberal arts in focus (W&M is really unique in U.S. public higher education). GMU, VCU, and ODU serve the urban areas and are also attractive for non-traditional students who need to remain closer to family or work. VCU is strong in art and medical professions. JMU has loyal alumni, a strong business school, a focus on developing areas with CISAT, and educates close to as many undergraduates as UVA and W&M combined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The worse thing GMU did was align the university with the Koch brothers (noted for their political activities donating to conservative and Republican Party causes)

The Koch Bros. helped fund the Libertarian Mercatus Center at GMU and gave money to rename the Law School the Antonin Scalia School of Law (acronym ASSoL for those who find such things amusing). Though I align with liberal politics and strongly disagree with the Koch Bros. politics, most undergraduates couldn't find the Mercatus Center if they tried--it is its own entity not like an academic department. That said, the econ department at GMU overall leans strongly libertarian so a kid attending to study econ should be aware the model they will primarily learn. (It's top-notch if that's your sort of thing). But otherwise Koch have nothing to do with GMU. The rest of the faculty/departments are leftish to center or apolitical. Student body leans left like most undergrad environments, but has more diversity of politics than many. As a liberal democrat, I would have no problem with my kid going to school there except if they were going to econ or law school, talking with them that there might be a certain flavor/perception they should be aware of.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would send my kid to MSU for supply chain Econ, Chinese Studies or any Ag major/concentration. Zero hesitation.

Molestation State U?

Might as well include Pedophile State U too...

Real mature.

Truth hurts!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is considering all because:

1. UVA and W&M are a bit more difficult as her SAT is only 1300 , but GPA is above 4.0. 8 APs and 8 Honors

2. Pre-med/or another professional health interest (Dentistry, PA) so VCU, GMU, and JMU are part of that mix. Not sure how VT stands in comparison as I know UVA is strong in health professions.

Your daughter has a good record and UVA will give her a serious look. William & Mary won't, because she's a girl. They'll use her SATs an an excuse to ding her in favor of a less qualified boy.

I'd strongly recommend that she take a hard look at VCU for pre-med. They have some sort of guaranteed admission to their med school, and they're very good at health professions across the board. And they'd love to have her. She'd be much better off going there over JMU or GMU.

Thanks. VCU is a strong choice...however, guaranteed med is not something she is interested in. My DW is a doctor who has taught many residents/med students coming from guaranteed admission programs and she states that these students sometimes are not as prepared as they should be.

Both JMU and GMU have improved their pre-med/other health professional programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My DD is considering all because:

1. UVA and W&M are a bit more difficult as her SAT is only 1300 , but GPA is above 4.0. 8 APs and 8 Honors

2. Pre-med/or another professional health interest (Dentistry, PA) so VCU, GMU, and JMU are part of that mix. Not sure how VT stands in comparison as I know UVA is strong in health professions.

Your daughter has a good record and UVA will give her a serious look. William & Mary won't, because she's a girl. They'll use her SATs an an excuse to ding her in favor of a less qualified boy.

I'd strongly recommend that she take a hard look at VCU for pre-med. They have some sort of guaranteed admission to their med school, and they're very good at health professions across the board. And they'd love to have her. She'd be much better off going there over JMU or GMU.

Thanks. VCU is a strong choice...however, guaranteed med is not something she is interested in. My DW is a doctor who has taught many residents/med students coming from guaranteed admission programs and she states that these students sometimes are not as prepared as they should be.

Both JMU and GMU have improved their pre-med/other health professional programs.

Respectfully, that makes no sense to me. All that matters is that your daughter be well prepared and get admitted. If she doesn't want to go for guaranteed med, fine . . .MCV is a great med school, and your daughter unquestionably would have a leg up in admissions to MCV coming out of VCU than JMU and GMU. Pre-med is simply not what either is known for.

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Anonymous wrote:Big companies still go to all of these schools

After your first job no one cares where you went to school anyway

I went to JMU 10 years ago and I had a lot of fun

Now I make over 6 figures and I would have done just as well as any of the other colleges on this list

Again, we know that. There's nothing wrong with JMU. I'm just saying that if you're from NOVA and truly are a borderline UVA admit, as was my daughter, it can be a let down to have to go there. Her high school probably sent two or three dozen kids there, including some good friends, none of whom performed as well as she did academically.

2017-2018 Freshman Enrollment from Fairfax County

GMU - 1,031
VT - 959
UVA - 680
JMU - 600

More likely to run into kids from your same high school at UVA than JMU.

I'm not the poster who said JMU is high school 2.0. The point is that our daughter was a better student than the two or three dozen of her classmates who went to JMU, and she wanted something better for her efforts.

I'm the poster who said people might go OOS to avoid high school 2.0. I didn't mean literally that you'll see the same folks as those in your high school all the time, but rather the population will reflect a lot students with similar backgrounds as you knew in high school. I actually think this is MORE true at UVA, GMU and W&M which are more NOVA-heavy than JMU.