Current MCPS language immersion programs are incredibly classist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"How many children entering kindergarten know how to read in any language?

Also, "well-off families who happen to have come from Latin America"? Why the "happen to have"? Those families are just as Hispanic -- no more, no less -- than poor families who "happen to have" come from Latin America."


Are you just trying to find reason to take offense? Not all ESOL kids in MCPS come in K so while that is true for K kids it would not be as relevant for all the other grades they show up in. Also although of course anecdotally I know many of the low income Hispanic families at our school can read Spanish it is also considerably more common to find low income Hispanic immigrants whose parents cannot read well in Spanish.

To the second point - the point here is that the upper middle class Hispanic kids whose families immigrants here and surely know how to fluently read in spanish are not the main concern regarding the achievement gap between white and Hispanic kids. They are also not the majority of the Hispanic student population as FARMS status helps to indicate. just because something is not true100% of the time does not mean it is not relevant the majority of the time.

Not pp, but the other pp.. You are in the wrong thread. When you say not all ESOL kids enter in Kindergarten, that's precisely the point. Immersion STARTS in K so differences in reading level are not as important. You are making comments about things that don't have much impact on Immersion.

[Anonymous]

This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

They created a bunch of twi (two way immersion) elementary schools that offer more equal access to language immersion at the home school if you are zoned for one of them. However, they don't effectively provide support for kids with IEPs or kids that speak languages other than English and Spanish. They haven't done a good job implementing the curriculum so teachers don't have appropriate materials. Unsurprisingly, the outcomes haven't been awesome.

So now there are whispers of ending this model (instead of trying to implement it correctly). Meanwhile Taylor is proposing a fancy new mandarin immersion program at Whitman which will only be open to kids with prior exposure to mandarin (in Region 1 that is only Pyle MS offers it at the MS level). #thisiswhatequitydoesntlooklike

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

No. A bunch of the stuff mentioned in the original thread was addressed. The lottery registration process is now aligned with kindergarten registration, for example, whereas it used to be months before most folks were registering. The sibling link is also weakened, and MCPS has created more TWI programs in local schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

No. A bunch of the stuff mentioned in the original thread was addressed. The lottery registration process is now aligned with kindergarten registration, for example, whereas it used to be months before most folks were registering. The sibling link is also weakened, and MCPS has created more TWI programs in local schools.

Agree that most of these things have been addressed - and needed to be. Still believe that breaking the sibling link was a mistake. The number of spots used by siblings was small, for starters. Also, when siblings were admitted, whole families became invested in the program - buying books in the target language, traveling, parents starting to learn the language, older siblings being able to help younger ones with homework and getting that confidence boost. I get that people have strong feelings - calling us "breeders" - but it really made sense programmatically to admit little siblings. That's one change I think was for the worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that the original motivation was to bring higher income kids into lower income schools but that isn't how it necessarily plays out. I am in the DCC and many parents want their kids to go to Rock Creek Forest so that they continue on to Westland and BCC instead of the DCC middle and high schools. So it is really drawing higher income DCC kids into RCF to avoid schools like Einstein, etc. Kind of the opposite of what was intended.

And what is happening with the Spanish language immersion program at BCC? Anything with all the high school program changes underway?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

No. A bunch of the stuff mentioned in the original thread was addressed. The lottery registration process is now aligned with kindergarten registration, for example, whereas it used to be months before most folks were registering. The sibling link is also weakened, and MCPS has created more TWI programs in local schools.

Agree that most of these things have been addressed - and needed to be. Still believe that breaking the sibling link was a mistake. The number of spots used by siblings was small, for starters. Also, when siblings were admitted, whole families became invested in the program - buying books in the target language, traveling, parents starting to learn the language, older siblings being able to help younger ones with homework and getting that confidence boost. I get that people have strong feelings - calling us "breeders" - but it really made sense programmatically to admit little siblings. That's one change I think was for the worse.

I wish I was good at finding MCPS reports, because I think the sibling link was small EXCEPT for Rock Creek Forest, where at one point something like 50 percent of seats were going to siblings. Breaking the automatic admission to B-CC likely weakened the appeal, however

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

No. A bunch of the stuff mentioned in the original thread was addressed. The lottery registration process is now aligned with kindergarten registration, for example, whereas it used to be months before most folks were registering. The sibling link is also weakened, and MCPS has created more TWI programs in local schools.

Agree that most of these things have been addressed - and needed to be. Still believe that breaking the sibling link was a mistake. The number of spots used by siblings was small, for starters. Also, when siblings were admitted, whole families became invested in the program - buying books in the target language, traveling, parents starting to learn the language, older siblings being able to help younger ones with homework and getting that confidence boost. I get that people have strong feelings - calling us "breeders" - but it really made sense programmatically to admit little siblings. That's one change I think was for the worse.

I wish I was good at finding MCPS reports, because I think the sibling link was small EXCEPT for Rock Creek Forest, where at one point something like 50 percent of seats were going to siblings. Breaking the automatic admission to B-CC likely weakened the appeal, however

I was going to say that both in both my kids’ grades at RCF there were tons of siblings. And there really were a seemingly high number of families with 3 and 4 kids who all went through immersion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

They created a bunch of twi (two way immersion) elementary schools that offer more equal access to language immersion at the home school if you are zoned for one of them. However, they don't effectively provide support for kids with IEPs or kids that speak languages other than English and Spanish. They haven't done a good job implementing the curriculum so teachers don't have appropriate materials. Unsurprisingly, the outcomes haven't been awesome.

So now there are whispers of ending this model (instead of trying to implement it correctly). Meanwhile Taylor is proposing a fancy new mandarin immersion program at Whitman which will only be open to kids with prior exposure to mandarin (in Region 1 that is only Pyle MS offers it at the MS level). #thisiswhatequitydoesntlooklike

Think of it this way don't you want your kids future bosses to know a little Mandarin

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is from 2015. Is the statement true in 2026?

They created a bunch of twi (two way immersion) elementary schools that offer more equal access to language immersion at the home school if you are zoned for one of them. However, they don't effectively provide support for kids with IEPs or kids that speak languages other than English and Spanish. They haven't done a good job implementing the curriculum so teachers don't have appropriate materials. Unsurprisingly, the outcomes haven't been awesome.

So now there are whispers of ending this model (instead of trying to implement it correctly). Meanwhile Taylor is proposing a fancy new mandarin immersion program at Whitman which will only be open to kids with prior exposure to mandarin (in Region 1 that is only Pyle MS offers it at the MS level). #thisiswhatequitydoesntlooklike

Think of it this way don't you want your kids future bosses to know a little Mandarin

I've worked with people who thought they should be my boss because they went to a "better" school. They did not fare well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I'm sure most apply to these programs for the language immersion experience, I wonder how many apply for other reasons--capped class size, access to the different "pyramid" an earlier poster mentioned, etc. In this case their main goal is to escape the "general MCPS" system rather than the language immersion (though that's what they accept for the benefits they perceive).

I would love to know this information. It would put the question to rest about whether all families are trying to escape their "bad" school pyramid for a "good" one. We are only in K, so we haven't gotten to know a lot of the families yet, but the ones we do know have entered the program for the language benefits and not the school pyramid. Again, we aren't at RCF, so the proportion of families who apply for the school pyramid may be different there.

I do know one family who entered the lottery to escape a perceived bad elementary. They are at Maryvale FI now. It does happen. I don't think it happens to the extent that many DCUM posters think it does.

Maybe those running the evaluation of choice programs in MCPS should do the survey of current parents or even parents that applied for the immersion lottery and didn't get in to see how many applied for benefits other than language.

No one admits that they apply to escape their own school, at least not directly. I can tell you that are RCF a really high number of the immersion students live in the DCC. Take that for what you will.

Oh good grief. RCF is also the most convenient Spanish option for many parts of the DCC. We ended up not applying for immersion but when we were looking at the options, RCF and SCES (for French) were the only options that would have worked logisitcally work for us. We live in Silver Spring and both work so our kids need to go to before/aftercare, and Burnt Mills and WIlliam Page are both in the opposite direction of our commutes. And then if the younger DC didn't get in it would have complicated things further. Personally I would have preferred dual immersion (but not enough to pick up and move in bounds for it) or simply starting language instruction in ES for everyone like is common in many other countries. If I had wanted to "escape" the DCC then I would have bought a condo in Bethesda to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the original motivation was to bring higher income kids into lower income schools but that isn't how it necessarily plays out. I am in the DCC and many parents want their kids to go to Rock Creek Forest so that they continue on to Westland and BCC instead of the DCC middle and high schools. So it is really drawing higher income DCC kids into RCF to avoid schools like Einstein, etc. Kind of the opposite of what was intended.

And what is happening with the Spanish language immersion program at BCC? Anything with all the high school program changes underway?

What Spanish immersion program at BCC?

[Anonymous]

Original post didn’t age well. So many inaccuracies. We left a “better pyramid” school because we believe in immersion and learning another language. And no, our sibling child didn’t automatically get in. There is no longer a sibling link. I know of two other families who also had separated siblings that kept reapplying every year until their children could be at the same immersion school eventually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Original post didn’t age well. So many inaccuracies. We left a “better pyramid” school because we believe in immersion and learning another language. And no, our sibling child didn’t automatically get in. There is no longer a sibling link. I know of two other families who also had separated siblings that kept reapplying every year until their children could be at the same immersion school eventually.

Yes, this has been our experience too. We are in Silver Spring but we know multiple Bethesda families at our immersion program. And it seems like siblings get in the program maybe 30-40% of the time. Some families send siblings to any immersion program and are happy enough to send them to different schools -- they really want immersion. Other families COSA the younger siblings in and just want them at the same school, even if it's "lower performing" than their home school, because they want their kids at the same place. There is a huge range. Absolutely I know people who don't feel great about their home school, and that was a factor in their applying for immersion. But it's hardly the dominant situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Original post didn’t age well. So many inaccuracies. We left a “better pyramid” school because we believe in immersion and learning another language. And no, our sibling child didn’t automatically get in. There is no longer a sibling link. I know of two other families who also had separated siblings that kept reapplying every year until their children could be at the same immersion school eventually.

This is kind of a funny comment. The OP didn't age well because MCPS took deliberate steps to change the system as a result of valid concerns regarding access to language immersion programs. There was literally a 200+ page report that looked at these and other issues: https://bethesdamagazine.com/2016/03/10/study-on-mcps-magnet-programs-high-school-consortia-suggests-changes-to-improve-opportunities-for-students-from-low-income-families/

Oh, and I found the citation folks were looking for above regarding the percentage of kids who benefited from the sibling link. It was actually not low at all:

"First, data on implementation of the sibling link in elementary language immersion programs
show that almost a third of students (29.8%) who were admitted to the programs through the
lottery in 2013–14 were siblings. The proportion was as high as 45.8% for some programs. This
sibling link hinders equity of access for non-siblings because it reduces the total number of seats
that are available."