Fairfax County: McLean Citizens Association demands smaller class sizes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

Both types of analyses might be interesting, but the information on the other website is still telling and does not, by itself, misrepresent anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

Both types of analyses might be interesting, but the information on the other website is still telling and does not, by itself, misrepresent anything.

I respectfully disagree.

Stating that other schools in the county have class sizes of 15, 16, 17 (etc.) is accurate. However, the data shows how the total number of classrooms for a grade would NOT change by putting-children-in-seats like eggs in an egg carton, with the last classroom in a grade level having a very small number of students. I would expect any principal to attempt to distribute the number of children in a grade across all the classrooms resulting in roughly the same number of students in each classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh and this is all being said on the annandale blog.

Why dont you also threaten to secede from Fairfax while you are at it?

You do know that would require consent from Richmond, which you will not get, because too many counties around the commonwealth would be threatened.

But I hve a deal - North County can secede, but "rest of Fairfax" keeps Tysons, and the other TOD areas adjacent to the Silver Line. We can finally build what we want there, without getting signoff from the MCA.

Well, the governor came from McLean so you never know.

The more likely scenarios is that there is some compromise worked out, or a new School Board is elected this fall that insists upon a change in the staffing formula. The primary beneficiaries of the current formula are the Mason, Lee and Mount Vernon Districts, and the School Board has 12 members. Not that many people vote in off-year School Board elections, and the entire Board is up for re-election, so there could be a major policy change coming.

You do know that there is no cap in Title 1 classes from 3rd grade on, right? My Ds's class has 27 kids and his school has more than 50% FRL. Larger class sizes do happen in Title 1 schools as well.

[Anonymous]

This thread is amazing. You'd think that it would be uncontroversial to say that 37 students is too many in an elementary school class. Apparently not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

It's data that FCPS has and it's accurate. It's an excel file that can be arranged to draw as many conclusions as you'd like. FCPS can analyze schools and call the principal if they see some classes are smaller than others in a grade. It's the principal's discretion where to place the teachers. At our school the difference between classes is about 2-3 children and is typically for something like a combination class being 26 children and a single grade class being 29. Not a lot of difference between the two classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You could elect a BOS member who actually tries to enforce the housing codes, has said "no" to developers who keep pushing to increase density in areas that aren't convenient to Metro, and insists that new schools have adequate playground space and aren't located in abandoned office buildings when there were several better alternatives.

But, no, you kept electing Penny Gross, and then you think we should smile and keep quiet when FCPS puts twice as many kids in our classes as yours? Sorry, but our class sizes are too big, and we'll advocate aggressively to bring them down. See you at the polls, or in the court house, whichever comes first.

So now McLean wants to blame Mason district for not ejecting the poor? Where do you suppose those people are going to go when you "enforce the code"? (BTW last I heard code enforcement was by the County, not the Supervisor, so your supervisor would have to vote for it too)
You know there are already homeless people in Fairfax, don't you?

You are such lovely, lovely people in McLean.

Is there any law that you believe should be upheld? If you don't like the law, you can push to change it, but understand that the rest of us are not mean just by wanting the existing laws upheld.

[Anonymous]

Not the PP, and I don't recall seeing information about classes with 10 kids. There are classes in some parts of the county with fewer than 15 kids and less than 1/2 the number of students that are in classes elsewhere in the county.

http://classsizecounts.com/?page_id=7


Some examples from that report. Bucknell has numerous classes around 12 students including a 6th grade class. Fort Hunt has 12 kids in one class. Herndon has a 2nd grade class of 10. Weyanoke has a 5th grade class of 14. These include any level 2 students. They may have changed during the year, but at this snapshot, these were the numbers while other classes in the county at that same time were at 30-37 children.

Just saw this thread. My kids go to Rose Hill ES which has an immersion program. All the classes appearing on the list from the above link are for the immersion classes. I've got kids that are not in immersion and they have 24, 26 and 27 kids in their classes. And, Rose Hill is a Title 1 school. I don't know if Bucknell, Ft. Hunt or Weyanoke have any 'special' programs like RH but just because you see some classrooms with low numbers on that list doesn't mean all classes in that school have few students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

It's data that FCPS has and it's accurate. It's an excel file that can be arranged to draw as many conclusions as you'd like. FCPS can analyze schools and call the principal if they see some classes are smaller than others in a grade. It's the principal's discretion where to place the teachers. At our school the difference between classes is about 2-3 children and is typically for something like a combination class being 26 children and a single grade class being 29. Not a lot of difference between the two classes.

That's my point -- the classroom data is accurate. But it misrepresents the data when conclusions on individual classroom sizes instead of taking the classrooms in a single school in a single grade and totally up the number of students.

I know of no principal who would state 22 students should be in each of four classrooms in 1st grade, and the fifth 1st grade classroom should have 2 students, to total 90 students in 1st grade. Simple as that. How might a principal spread 90 students out across 1st grade classes in a Title I school (with a K-3 state limit of 22 students in a classroom)? 22 * 4 = 88 and that is less than 90, so it will need to be 5 classrooms. 90 divided by 5 = 18 students per classroom

And the 18 students per classroom triggers the Spreadsheet alarm bell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: The committee member who spearheaded this particular resolution, Louise Epstein, is a former School Board candidate who probably understands the FCPS budget better than any current member of the School Board.

Argh- so this is just Catherine Lorenze republican dog whistle 8-month early campaign strategy?

Weak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

Both types of analyses might be interesting, but the information on the other website is still telling and does not, by itself, misrepresent anything.

I respectfully disagree.

Stating that other schools in the county have class sizes of 15, 16, 17 (etc.) is accurate. However, the data shows how the total number of classrooms for a grade would NOT change by putting-children-in-seats like eggs in an egg carton, with the last classroom in a grade level having a very small number of students. I would expect any principal to attempt to distribute the number of children in a grade across all the classrooms resulting in roughly the same number of students in each classroom.

First you said you hadn't really scrubbed the data and now you say you draw a different inference from all the data than others. Either way the data that you're referring to is just a spreadsheet with numbers provided by FCPS in response to a FOIA request. There is nothing misleading about it, so stop misrepresenting what the information states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

Both types of analyses might be interesting, but the information on the other website is still telling and does not, by itself, misrepresent anything.

I respectfully disagree.

Stating that other schools in the county have class sizes of 15, 16, 17 (etc.) is accurate. However, the data shows how the total number of classrooms for a grade would NOT change by putting-children-in-seats like eggs in an egg carton, with the last classroom in a grade level having a very small number of students. I would expect any principal to attempt to distribute the number of children in a grade across all the classrooms resulting in roughly the same number of students in each classroom.

First you said you hadn't really scrubbed the data and now you say you draw a different inference from all tthendata than others. Either way the data that you're referring to is just a spreadsheet with numbers provided by FCPS in response to a FOIA request. There is nothing misleading about it, so stop misrepresenting what the information states.

Already addressed the issue. Thanks for your feedback. I am halfway through the data now. Same conclusion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they don't speak for everyone in McLean, but they aren't totally pulling this stuff out of a hat, either. The very large class sizes in McLean schools are a major source of concern among many parents.

But the data presented on their associated website misrepresents the facts.

I have not had the time to review all 4,103 rows of data, but a cursory look at just a quarter of the data shows case after case where they have labeled a classroom as "20 or under" as they are viewing a single classroom among several classrooms in the same grade. What they should have done (instead) is look at the grade as a whole (therefore, look at the classrooms in a cluster), and try to identify specific instances where there is "20 or under" scenarios across the entire grade and by reaggregating the total number of students in the grade would reduce the number of classrooms in the grade by at least one classroom. Through the quarter of rows of data I have reviewed thus far, there were no such instances.

It's data that FCPS has and it's accurate. It's an excel file that can be arranged to draw as many conclusions as you'd like. FCPS can analyze schools and call the principal if they see some classes are smaller than others in a grade. It's the principal's discretion where to place the teachers. At our school the difference between classes is about 2-3 children and is typically for something like a combination class being 26 children and a single grade class being 29. Not a lot of difference between the two classes.

That's my point -- the classroom data is accurate. But it misrepresents the data when conclusions on individual classroom sizes instead of taking the classrooms in a single school in a single grade and totally up the number of students.

I know of no principal who would state 22 students should be in each of four classrooms in 1st grade, and the fifth 1st grade classroom should have 2 students, to total 90 students in 1st grade. Simple as that. How might a principal spread 90 students out across 1st grade classes in a Title I school (with a K-3 state limit of 22 students in a classroom)? 22 * 4 = 88 and that is less than 90, so it will need to be 5 classrooms. 90 divided by 5 = 18 students per classroom

And the 18 students per classroom triggers the Spreadsheet alarm bell.

Actually, what triggers the alarm bell are the classrooms with over 30 kids.

No one is against smaller classes in Title I schools, but they are against classes with over 30 kids, and the data on the smaller classes and current staffing formulas helps to explain how we ended up where we are today, which is not acceptable.

[Anonymous]

Smaller class sizes are not the holy grail.

Look at schools in ACPS - average class size in many schools can be under 20 students. In fact, the school that is consistently failing has the smallest class size and has for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Smaller class sizes are not the holy grail.

Look at schools in ACPS - average class size in many schools can be under 20 students. In fact, the school that is consistently failing has the smallest class size and has for years.

Does ACPS have as great a range of class sizes though? Can you tell how students grow related to class size? FCPS has classes ranging from 10-37 in the same grade so it's easier to see how reducing class sizes helps. If there is enough research that even with low class sizes, certain students still fail, I think FCPS needs to look at what does help these students succeed and focus on this verses only on class size. And they need to be more transparent about why they've chosen such a disparity in class size from one school to another.