Being lower middle class and living well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone can save money. There's nothing particularly inspiring or praiseworthy about about it. It's like congratulating someone for not being overweight. Being strong and healthy is another matter - you actually have to put in long term hard work and exercise.

The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

This worrying is natural and expected. This same personality is what brought them to their current level of income in the first place. There are those who are satisfied with their existing condition, content to stay the same and live modestly for decades - there is nothing wrong with that. It is certainly yet another goal to achieve personal financial security. However, it is important to recognize that we are talking about two different types of people here. Someone making $300k a year and hungry for more may go insane with the idea of staying the same for decades.

And that same type of personality with a hunger for more may have particular trouble with a self-discipline that imposes an artificial scarcity on themselves, like a thrifty lifestyle. In fact saving is unusual and praiseworthy and admirable. It is not easy. It is hard to practice sustained self-discipline. PP you said it yourself. It is so hard that the thought of staying the same for decades could drive you insane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I paid $186/week at a nice church daycare in 2012 for my 2 year old. The most I paid for infant care was $300/week and at NAEYC center. Ex and I split daycare. DD went into free PreK3 thereafter. Her school provided free aftercare. I took home $3000 when she was born. Mortgage and condo fees plus utilities were $1400. I breastfed exclusively and opted to use cloth diapers (until we switched to a cheaper center that only used disposable). I saved 10-15% for retirement the entire time.

We still ate out, travelled, and I went out with friends and dates. I am not as extreme as OP, but I agree that living on well under 100k can be done. I am probably not much older than OP.

I think the big kicker for a lot of people is the cost of childcare. I am so glad to hear people have found affordable, safe and reliable childcare options, but I think most people can agree thwt is not the norm, they are very hard to find and if you do find one it must have a space available and work for your work hours. I searched from the day I found out I was pregnant, at 6 weeks, and couldn't find an in home daycare that seemed remotely safe to me, or a center that even had a space available when I calculated I would go back to work. It was insane. I mean I searched near where I lived, near my job, in between, and beyond. No churches in my area had daycare, they had MMO programs but that's not Fulltime care. I had to go with a center, it was $1200 a month for my baby in 2008.

Now that baby is in 1st grade, so he needs aftercare at school, and camps during break. Sure it's cheaper thnan 52 weeks of Fulltime daycare, but it isn't nothing either. And don't get me started on the emergencies, like all the snow days from last year, many of them for hardly any snow. Having to juggle snow days, sick days, random days off from school. Having a kid is expensive, and then there are the random emergencies thwt put you in jeopardy of losing your job or getting passed over for that promotion. Once you have a kid, you can't be working super late, or over the weekends, etc. it's life, and it's a juggle with money, time and sanity.

[Anonymous]

MarleySkye840 wrote:I don't think OP is necessarily being smug. I think she is just saying, you don't need 100's of thousands to live "comfortably"- even in this area. I think OP is really just challenging what we generally view as "necessary" or important.

So yes, as she gets older and has more responsibilities, she will have to roll with the punches, but I think knowing that money doesn't always help the situation is key. We all know that money will help with bills and wants, but I think it is important to know *how* to get by on less so that if you need to, it isn't a huge shock.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone can save money. There's nothing particularly inspiring or praiseworthy about about it. It's like congratulating someone for not being overweight. Being strong and healthy is another matter - you actually have to put in long term hard work and exercise.

The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

This worrying is natural and expected. This same personality is what brought them to their current level of income in the first place. There are those who are satisfied with their existing condition, content to stay the same and live modestly for decades - there is nothing wrong with that. It is certainly yet another goal to achieve personal financial security. However, it is important to recognize that we are talking about two different types of people here. Someone making $300k a year and hungry for more may go insane with the idea of staying the same for decades.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone can save money. There's nothing particularly inspiring or praiseworthy about about it. It's like congratulating someone for not being overweight. Being strong and healthy is another matter - you actually have to put in long term hard work and exercise.

The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

This worrying is natural and expected. This same personality is what brought them to their current level of income in the first place. There are those who are satisfied with their existing condition, content to stay the same and live modestly for decades - there is nothing wrong with that. It is certainly yet another goal to achieve personal financial security. However, it is important to recognize that we are talking about two different types of people here. Someone making $300k a year and hungry for more may go insane with the idea of staying the same for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone can save money. There's nothing particularly inspiring or praiseworthy about about it. It's like congratulating someone for not being overweight. Being strong and healthy is another matter - you actually have to put in long term hard work and exercise.

The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

This worrying is natural and expected. This same personality is what brought them to their current level of income in the first place. There are those who are satisfied with their existing condition, content to stay the same and live modestly for decades - there is nothing wrong with that. It is certainly yet another goal to achieve personal financial security. However, it is important to recognize that we are talking about two different types of people here. Someone making $300k a year and hungry for more may go insane with the idea of staying the same for decades.

Just for the record - some very motivated, purpose driven folks have other goals (not just a high HHI). There are some very worthwhile careers that just aren't very high paying. And many people with a high income are complete slackers. I know a few.

[Anonymous]

A young single person who has gotten tons of family help and thinks they know it all? Never met one of these before!

[Anonymous]

Oh, to be young, single and fully employed again. Sigh.

Lots of comments on how "refreshing" this is but it all sounds like the most popular post I see here which is "I do everything right, let me tell you how..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

[Anonymous]

And frankly I don't think OP mischaracterized some of the arguments on here. She may not be speaking for you PP but I've seen plenty of posts where folks state they are living paycheck to paycheck on very high HHI. Or that they feel "poor".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And frankly I don't think OP mischaracterized some of the arguments on here. She may not be speaking for you PP but I've seen plenty of posts where folks state they are living paycheck to paycheck on very high HHI. Or that they feel "poor".

I haven't posted that before but I could have. We're living paycheck to paycheck on $150k+. We have $2500 student loan payments each month, and in a couple years when those are paid off, then that money will go to savings and other debt. But we're happy, living well, and not complaining.

I don't think OP has quite figured out how to afford kids, but she'll do what we all do when that time comes, and figure it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OP grossly mis-characterized the complaints voiced in this forum by people with higher HHI. These people are not complaining about lack of money for food, rent, gas, or other essentials. They are saying that even with the higher income, they live a very middle class lifestyle, and certainly not luxurious as one may imagine without first hand experience. Close your eyes and imagine if you had $170k a year, $300k a year, how would you live, where would you vacation, the home you would live in, and etc. The people making these salaries have found out that the answer in all cases is "slightly better than average". When you were young, you might think that a 170k or 300k HHI means "you've made it". I know I did, and so did my wife. The reality is that people making $300k in the DC area have NOT "made it". These people have exerted great effort to improve their financial condition. They are the over-achievers in life, with purpose driven personality, and willing to put in the hard work necessary to achieve their goals. The fact that this level of income doesn't bring absolute financial security is what worries these people.

See the thing is - we wouldn't live that differently at those HHIs. Therefore we would have a lot of savings. Its the people who think they should have bigger and better who end up living paycheck to paycheck at those HHIs. And that is a choice my friend.

PP here. That's not the point. The point is, most people think with 170k or 300k HHI a year, you'll be rich or even wealthy, able to lead lavish life styles without much care for finances - financially secure, independently wealthy, etc. The reality is that 170k/300k a year gets you marginally better quality of life, but still middle class. You really can't afford that much more. This comes as a shock to most people who through hard work arrive at this income level. When one's assumptions turn out wrong, it becomes rather stressful - this is where the stress comes from. Not living paycheck to paycheck, etc.

I don't expect lavish (and frankly you should not have either). But I sure don't buy that I wouldn't be A LOT more comfortable with twice my salary. (Which would be 170k). To say you are only marginally better off is so disingenuous. Try living on my salary for a while and you'll see how well off you are.

We make around 350k and I feel we live very well. We are able to save 7k a month, pay our mortgage, max out 401ks, drive luxury carss, dine out weekly and go on two upscale vacations a year (using miles and points).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Report back after you are married and have kids.

This is a NP - of course things are going to change when OP has kids. However, her frugal ways will benefit her greatly once she is married with kids. I say this a frugal single parent. We are going just fine on an income that most of DCUM would find completely abysmal. OP will make it work because she knows how to be frugal and knows what is really important in life. Not money and material items.

And I'm certain her children will be frugal straight out of the womb, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And frankly I don't think OP mischaracterized some of the arguments on here. She may not be speaking for you PP but I've seen plenty of posts where folks state they are living paycheck to paycheck on very high HHI. Or that they feel "poor".

I haven't posted that before but I could have. We're living paycheck to paycheck on $150k+. We have $2500 student loan payments each month, and in a couple years when those are paid off, then that money will go to savings and other debt. But we're happy, living well, and not complaining.

I don't think OP has quite figured out how to afford kids, but she'll do what we all do when that time comes, and figure it out.

OP doesn't have student loan debt like you because she had family help, so she can't empathize with the fact that people with higher incomes than her may have more expenses. But she knows it all and is doing better than you.