Frontline doc about Rhee and cheating

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Truth is, teachers and staff members who weren't doing their jobs could have been fired without Michelle Rhee. Even teachers with tenure could have been fired for time and attendance violations. The situation we have now with IMPACT is that everyone feels threatened, including great teachers who work under very difficult conditions. Also, we have teachers who don't do that much who are earning bonuses. Does this sound like an improvement?

People who aren't teachers are constantly evaluated in their jobs. Why should teachers be excluded from review? It sounds like teachers are moving more towards working in THE REAL WORLD, not DCPS where every action was ignored and a paycheck rolled in regardless. Most people, especially in a bad economy, feel threatened about losing their jobs. Welcome to real life.

Teachers have always been evaluated - not "excluded from review." The difference now is that they are reviewed in part on their students' standardized test scores and in part on specific classroom behaviors, as per IMPACT.

Imagine a farmer being downgraded because there was a drought.

Imagine a oncologist getting fired because most of his mortally ill patients died of cancer.

Of course accountability is needed but the current system assumes that teachers alone are reponsible for their students' ability to learn.

Stop being a victim, please. It doesn't help your case or the children you teach.

Oh and by the way, a farmer is punished during a drought, he loses money. Doctors who consistently underserve patients lose their licenses. You live in a fantasy world if you truly believe others are not judged on their results. We all are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Stop being a victim, please. It doesn't help your case or the children you teach.

Oh and by the way, a farmer is punished during a drought, he loses money. Doctors who consistently underserve patients lose their licenses. You live in a fantasy world if you truly believe others are not judged on their results. We all are.

Your argument is ridiculous.

If patients are dying of certain diseases, are doctors asked to just have higher expectations for their patients? No, that would be absolutely ABSURD. Instead, millions of dollars are spent on finding cures and medications. In turn, our society has discovered many amazing ways to treat diseases that were once considered untreatable. If doctors had just been asked to have higher expectations we'd still be at square one, and we'd still all be worrying about getting polio.

Also, doctors who treats patients with fatal diseases do not lose their licenses when those patients die -- please, again, that is absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I liked that Rhee took on the teachers' union. I don't understand why public school teachers have tenure. Granted I only taught at the college level (untenured) but tenure at the college level was established to protect controversial research. Also most colleges and universities are doing away with tenure. Why should public school teachers NOT be fired. I totally think DCPS needs a MASSIVE shake up. There are some terrible teachers in it. Instead of cheating on standardize tests, why don't they actually teach their students.

80% of the 5th grade could not read at a proficient level, but passed the DC-CAS the year before. We had students who were expelled from the charter schools show up days before the CAS. Some of them were expelled for truancy. HR was a mess. The 5th graders had no recess. It was all really sad. All this, with being told, almost daily, that we could lose our jobs at any time. Thus, we could not just stop and go back to try to teach 1st grade reading to our students who needed the instruction so badly.

This is appalling. No one ever did take the time to go back and teach these kids who were being cheated out of learning to read! Disgusting!

Another PP wanted to extend naps into Pre-K?! Put your child to bed at a decent hour so they are ready to learn! Talk about structuring schools for the lowest common denominator. Is that what everyone wants?

Clearly DCPS is a mess. It was a mess before Rhee. It is a mess under Henderson. Until someone addresses the BASIC problems with lack of quality teaching and administration, it will be a mess. There are plenty of other schools who manage to teach and educate low (or no) income students. Using the kids' SES as an excuse is not addressing the other issues, which the former teacher posted regarding teachers leaving during the day or sleeping in class. Rhee was neither good nor bad for DCPS, it is still very much status quo.

You have a problem with PreK students (i.e., 4 year olds) taking naps in the middle of a 7 hour school day? Who ARE you? Simon Legree or some Dickensian villian?

My PreKer started reading in PreS, absolutely loves school, is bright and advanced, and needs a nap. Yes, even with a full night's sleep, she needs a nap. Sleep in the middle of the day is developmentally appropriate for 4 year olds. It's a school, not a sweatshop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Truth is, teachers and staff members who weren't doing their jobs could have been fired without Michelle Rhee. Even teachers with tenure could have been fired for time and attendance violations. The situation we have now with IMPACT is that everyone feels threatened, including great teachers who work under very difficult conditions. Also, we have teachers who don't do that much who are earning bonuses. Does this sound like an improvement?

People who aren't teachers are constantly evaluated in their jobs. Why should teachers be excluded from review? It sounds like teachers are moving more towards working in THE REAL WORLD, not DCPS where every action was ignored and a paycheck rolled in regardless. Most people, especially in a bad economy, feel threatened about losing their jobs. Welcome to real life.

Teachers have always been evaluated - not "excluded from review." The difference now is that they are reviewed in part on their students' standardized test scores and in part on specific classroom behaviors, as per IMPACT.

Imagine a farmer being downgraded because there was a drought.

Imagine a oncologist getting fired because most of his mortally ill patients died of cancer.

Of course accountability is needed but the current system assumes that teachers alone are reponsible for their students' ability to learn.

Stop being a victim, please. It doesn't help your case or the children you teach.

Oh and by the way, a farmer is punished during a drought, he loses money. Doctors who consistently underserve patients lose their licenses. You live in a fantasy world if you truly believe others are not judged on their results. We all are.

Yes but I think the point being made is that focusing on getting scores up on tests which leads to hours of test prep is not the kind of "results" that we want. Certainly I would have preferred that my kids' teachers spend more time teaching her to think and less time drilling for a test. Evaluation is important but Rhee's approach to evaluation was quite shallow. It was not an effective evaluation because it obviously failed to measure what it was supposed to measure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Truth is, teachers and staff members who weren't doing their jobs could have been fired without Michelle Rhee. Even teachers with tenure could have been fired for time and attendance violations. The situation we have now with IMPACT is that everyone feels threatened, including great teachers who work under very difficult conditions. Also, we have teachers who don't do that much who are earning bonuses. Does this sound like an improvement?

People who aren't teachers are constantly evaluated in their jobs. Why should teachers be excluded from review? It sounds like teachers are moving more towards working in THE REAL WORLD, not DCPS where every action was ignored and a paycheck rolled in regardless. Most people, especially in a bad economy, feel threatened about losing their jobs. Welcome to real life.

Don't have a problem with evaluations. Have a big problem with an evaluation instrument that is inequitable, that results in many good teachers feeling threatened while many mediocre teachers are rewarded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Here is my issue with your original post. The entire first part talks about teachers this... and teachers that. So, as I teacher- do I know that it all comes down to admin- OF COURSE. But I feel like teachers often get the blame for working in a culture of dysfunction The first part of your post you say again and again- teachers did this... teachers did that. Teachers, likely were also doing some heroic work. Also, and this is the tough part- you left. I am not blaming you- as I am now ready to head out the door to, but its hard to take negative feedback about the terrible things that are going on in the schools, from people who left. Those of us who stuck it out- and are trying to make good for the kids of DCPS (ALL the kids, not just the ones in NW) do not need one more thread of parents generalizing us as lazy, or asleep on the job. I would just ask- did you not see good things too? Was everything at your school terrible? I have taught Title I DCPS for my entire teaching career and sure- there is some bogus stuff going on- but there are also things that make me proud to be engaged in this amazing work. So am I 'defensive' teacher. You bet! When teachers are used as a scapegoat to ignore larger issues. (Not saying that is what you were directly doing, but you were laying the groundwork)

Oh my goodness... reading comprehension. My entire second response was about admin, but maybe I wasn't explicit enough. I have included handy hints in my message below. Admin creates, facilitates and nurtures the culture of a building. I had 6 principals in 5 years. You have a right to be a "defensive teacher" but if you must please try to resond to what is actually written. I have a feeling that you never taught in high school. It is a completely different environment in which to work. There is a lot that can go on in a 200,000 sq ft building that only serves 700 students, but all of it is under the direction of the leadership.
And FWIW, I loved the kids and many of the families. I still keep in contact with lots of them on a very regular basis. I still live in DC and send my kids to a charter school, and I still teach in public schools. I did leave that school after only 5 years because my ceiling collapsed (ADMIN) and I had been very ill for months because of the mold growing in the plaster that rained down on me (ADMIN). I felt a lot of guilt about it, but I couldn't physically or mentally do any more. I litereally fed, clothed and mothered hundreds of kids (FAMILIES) and it was a 24 hour a day job. There were plenty of physcial realities that required constant defense. I had 4 open drains in the middle of my classroom (ADMIN). There were rats and filth everywhere that wasn't attended to (ADMIN). I won't mention the one year I had to to teach science on a cart because of a many month battle to remove asbestos from my classroom (falsified reports made it so that "no one" knew about it- falsified by ADMIN who refused entrance to the room by the Army Corps of Engineers). I'm just grateful that Dr. Vance The only place I had to store my cart was in a bathroom (ADMIN). I wasn't assigned a temporary classroom (ADMIN)- I just had to find space for all of my kids every day, every period (ADMIN) My prep area was A DAMN BATHROOM. But it was okay because the ADMIN would only allow 2 bathrooms in the building to be unlocked and used by students so I had a 12 stall girls restroom all to myself.

And to the PP regarding a book: I have long thought about it, but books have plots with a beginning and an ending. People want to read stories that have closure. I have a long, long list of stories that don't have endings. I do have an equal number of great and wonderful, uplifting stories, too. Maybe that is the closure part?

OMG, compare and contrast. THIS post is nothing like your first post. And guess what, I get to disagree with how you present things. Its called having a conversation.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There is NOTHING about such joking in the specific post that you quoted. That post was obviously pure sarcasm ridiculing "Rhee Conspiracy Theory" that keeps getting posited, that all of the problems were solely Rhee's fault and Rhee's doing - it wasn't about the legitimacy of the tests.

It is difficult for me to understand how a post that you acknowledge is "pure sarcasm" and which begins "It was all about the test scores" does not contain joking about the concern some might have about the legitimacy of test scores. But, maybe it's just a question of semantics.

Obviously, nobody believes Rhee led a conspiracy to fake test scores. Rather, she created a system that incentivized cheating on test scores through the carrot of financial reward and stick of job loss. When the rather predictable cheating was revealed, she was slow to investigate it. She went so far as to promote the principal at whose school the greatest number of wrong-to-right erasures took place. Much as she based her original reputation on test score improvements in Baltimore that are largely a product of her imagination, she now bases her current reputation on test score gains in DC that are tarnished by cheating. That's not a conspiracy theory. It's just fact.

It didn't incentivize cheating. It incentivized good results. The RIGHT way to get those results was to find better ways to educate the students. The WRONG way, which hundreds of DCPS teachers and administrators chose was to cheat. It's faulty reasoning to just say "it incentivized cheating". People got fired for cheating, security went up because of cheating. Some incentive that is.

Also, as I recall, I believe the promotion happened BEFORE she knew the gains were due to cheating, not the other way around. Again, faulty reasoning to reverse engineer facts and history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Here is my issue with your original post. The entire first part talks about teachers this... and teachers that. So, as I teacher- do I know that it all comes down to admin- OF COURSE. But I feel like teachers often get the blame for working in a culture of dysfunction The first part of your post you say again and again- teachers did this... teachers did that. Teachers, likely were also doing some heroic work. Also, and this is the tough part- you left. I am not blaming you- as I am now ready to head out the door to, but its hard to take negative feedback about the terrible things that are going on in the schools, from people who left. Those of us who stuck it out- and are trying to make good for the kids of DCPS (ALL the kids, not just the ones in NW) do not need one more thread of parents generalizing us as lazy, or asleep on the job. I would just ask- did you not see good things too? Was everything at your school terrible? I have taught Title I DCPS for my entire teaching career and sure- there is some bogus stuff going on- but there are also things that make me proud to be engaged in this amazing work. So am I 'defensive' teacher. You bet! When teachers are used as a scapegoat to ignore larger issues. (Not saying that is what you were directly doing, but you were laying the groundwork)

Oh my goodness... reading comprehension. My entire second response was about admin, but maybe I wasn't explicit enough. I have included handy hints in my message below. Admin creates, facilitates and nurtures the culture of a building. I had 6 principals in 5 years. You have a right to be a "defensive teacher" but if you must please try to resond to what is actually written. I have a feeling that you never taught in high school. It is a completely different environment in which to work. There is a lot that can go on in a 200,000 sq ft building that only serves 700 students, but all of it is under the direction of the leadership.
And FWIW, I loved the kids and many of the families. I still keep in contact with lots of them on a very regular basis. I still live in DC and send my kids to a charter school, and I still teach in public schools. I did leave that school after only 5 years because my ceiling collapsed (ADMIN) and I had been very ill for months because of the mold growing in the plaster that rained down on me (ADMIN). I felt a lot of guilt about it, but I couldn't physically or mentally do any more. I litereally fed, clothed and mothered hundreds of kids (FAMILIES) and it was a 24 hour a day job. There were plenty of physcial realities that required constant defense. I had 4 open drains in the middle of my classroom (ADMIN). There were rats and filth everywhere that wasn't attended to (ADMIN). I won't mention the one year I had to to teach science on a cart because of a many month battle to remove asbestos from my classroom (falsified reports made it so that "no one" knew about it- falsified by ADMIN who refused entrance to the room by the Army Corps of Engineers). I'm just grateful that Dr. Vance The only place I had to store my cart was in a bathroom (ADMIN). I wasn't assigned a temporary classroom (ADMIN)- I just had to find space for all of my kids every day, every period (ADMIN) My prep area was A DAMN BATHROOM. But it was okay because the ADMIN would only allow 2 bathrooms in the building to be unlocked and used by students so I had a 12 stall girls restroom all to myself.

And to the PP regarding a book: I have long thought about it, but books have plots with a beginning and an ending. People want to read stories that have closure. I have a long, long list of stories that don't have endings. I do have an equal number of great and wonderful, uplifting stories, too. Maybe that is the closure part?

OMG, compare and contrast. THIS post is nothing like your first post. And guess what, I get to disagree with how you present things. Its called having a conversation.

I'm not the PP but it's not at all so different. The first post was almost entirely about admin problems. Yes, some bad teachers, but the far bigger problem than the cultural problems in the rank and file that underscores BOTH of PPs post was an administration that turned a blind eye to all of the problems, and that's what's been going on for decades, and what has allowed that culture of underperforming in the rank and file to arise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Stop being a victim, please. It doesn't help your case or the children you teach.

Oh and by the way, a farmer is punished during a drought, he loses money. Doctors who consistently underserve patients lose their licenses. You live in a fantasy world if you truly believe others are not judged on their results. We all are.

Your argument is ridiculous.

If patients are dying of certain diseases, are doctors asked to just have higher expectations for their patients? No, that would be absolutely ABSURD. Instead, millions of dollars are spent on finding cures and medications. In turn, our society has discovered many amazing ways to treat diseases that were once considered untreatable. If doctors had just been asked to have higher expectations we'd still be at square one, and we'd still all be worrying about getting polio.

Also, doctors who treats patients with fatal diseases do not lose their licenses when those patients die -- please, again, that is absurd.

With that analogy you are basically saying the teacher (doctor in your analogy) has zero responsibility and all failures are 100% the fault of the students (the dying cancer patients).

The more correct analogy would be one where a doctor sees healthy patients with minor but treatable conditions, fails to treat them, and then they die. Death was never inevitable, just as failure to learn never was.

Students are not dying cancer patients, sorry. Their lack of learning is not their fault. You are there to EDUCATE them, not to ignore them or give them a sub-par effort, and leave them to just go off and wither.

That whole analogy was wholly unconscionable and distasteful, and you probably have no business whatsoever in the education business, if that's what your attitude is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OMG, compare and contrast. THIS post is nothing like your first post. And guess what, I get to disagree with how you present things. Its called having a conversation.

I'm not sure what the compare and contrast comment means. All three of my posts talked about problems with the people who work in the system. I'm sorry you disagree and feel that what I wrote is a conversation. It is not intended as such. It is just a handful of true, accurate examples of a system that is far too corrupt - at all levels- for one person to fix.

[Anonymous]

^ Well, actually, I think the more appropriate analogy would be if doctors were rated and evaluated mostly on the outcome of patients, regardless of (1) what condition they arrived in or (2) what circumstances in their life that are outside the doctor's control may be worsening their situation, instead of rating them by whether the doctor followed the standard of care and provided adequate treatment.

That's what the system is doing when most of a teacher's rating is based solely on the outcome of one test administered one time a year, rather than on how they are actually performing in the classroom, covering the curriculum, serving students' different levels and needs, etc.

Think of those hospital ratings that are based on mortality rates, where they have to make the caveat that their usefulness is limited because trauma centers and high-level hospitals that receive the worst patients have higher mortality rates. And it's not because they provide worse care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I liked that Rhee took on the teachers' union. I don't understand why public school teachers have tenure. Granted I only taught at the college level (untenured) but tenure at the college level was established to protect controversial research. Also most colleges and universities are doing away with tenure. Why should public school teachers NOT be fired. I totally think DCPS needs a MASSIVE shake up. There are some terrible teachers in it. Instead of cheating on standardize tests, why don't they actually teach their students.

80% of the 5th grade could not read at a proficient level, but passed the DC-CAS the year before. We had students who were expelled from the charter schools show up days before the CAS. Some of them were expelled for truancy. HR was a mess. The 5th graders had no recess. It was all really sad. All this, with being told, almost daily, that we could lose our jobs at any time. Thus, we could not just stop and go back to try to teach 1st grade reading to our students who needed the instruction so badly.

This is appalling. No one ever did take the time to go back and teach these kids who were being cheated out of learning to read! Disgusting!

Another PP wanted to extend naps into Pre-K?! Put your child to bed at a decent hour so they are ready to learn! Talk about structuring schools for the lowest common denominator. Is that what everyone wants?

Clearly DCPS is a mess. It was a mess before Rhee. It is a mess under Henderson. Until someone addresses the BASIC problems with lack of quality teaching and administration, it will be a mess. There are plenty of other schools who manage to teach and educate low (or no) income students. Using the kids' SES as an excuse is not addressing the other issues, which the former teacher posted regarding teachers leaving during the day or sleeping in class. Rhee was neither good nor bad for DCPS, it is still very much status quo.

You have a problem with PreK students (i.e., 4 year olds) taking naps in the middle of a 7 hour school day? Who ARE you? Simon Legree or some Dickensian villian?

My PreKer started reading in PreS, absolutely loves school, is bright and advanced, and needs a nap. Yes, even with a full night's sleep, she needs a nap. Sleep in the middle of the day is developmentally appropriate for 4 year olds. It's a school, not a sweatshop.

I am a mom of a 6 and 4 year old. Both of my kids dropped their naps before 3. I would be fighting naps in PreK because if my kids were forced to nap, they would be up until midnight or would wake up at 3 in the morning. I understand it is school. I am a huge believer in play-based preschool but for my own sanity would fight PreK naps! I don't know many PreK-ers who nap. This might just be because my kids have play dates with the ones who do not....?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Stop being a victim, please. It doesn't help your case or the children you teach.

Oh and by the way, a farmer is punished during a drought, he loses money. Doctors who consistently underserve patients lose their licenses. You live in a fantasy world if you truly believe others are not judged on their results. We all are.

Your argument is ridiculous.

If patients are dying of certain diseases, are doctors asked to just have higher expectations for their patients? No, that would be absolutely ABSURD. Instead, millions of dollars are spent on finding cures and medications. In turn, our society has discovered many amazing ways to treat diseases that were once considered untreatable. If doctors had just been asked to have higher expectations we'd still be at square one, and we'd still all be worrying about getting polio.

Also, doctors who treats patients with fatal diseases do not lose their licenses when those patients die -- please, again, that is absurd.

With that analogy you are basically saying the teacher (doctor in your analogy) has zero responsibility and all failures are 100% the fault of the students (the dying cancer patients).

The more correct analogy would be one where a doctor sees healthy patients with minor but treatable conditions, fails to treat them, and then they die. Death was never inevitable, just as failure to learn never was.

Students are not dying cancer patients, sorry. Their lack of learning is not their fault. You are there to EDUCATE them, not to ignore them or give them a sub-par effort, and leave them to just go off and wither.

That whole analogy was wholly unconscionable and distasteful, and you probably have no business whatsoever in the education business, if that's what your attitude is.

I didn't mean to say that doctor lose their licenses if cancer patients die. If a doctor withholds treatment for no reason, s/he would lose their license. BUT My broader point being is everyone is subject to evaluation as part of a job! I really disliked her analogies, btw.

[Anonymous]

My child gave up his nap right around the time he turned 4, but still had another 1.5 years in classrooms where an afternoon rest period was mandatory. It wasn't a problem--he was allowed to look at books, and fell asleep only a.few times, when he was dead tired.

And several of his classmates really needed the nap, so I'm glad it was there for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ Well, actually, I think the more appropriate analogy would be if doctors were rated and evaluated mostly on the outcome of patients, regardless of (1) what condition they arrived in or (2) what circumstances in their life that are outside the doctor's control may be worsening their situation, instead of rating them by whether the doctor followed the standard of care and provided adequate treatment.

That's what the system is doing when most of a teacher's rating is based solely on the outcome of one test administered one time a year, rather than on how they are actually performing in the classroom, covering the curriculum, serving students' different levels and needs, etc.

Think of those hospital ratings that are based on mortality rates, where they have to make the caveat that their usefulness is limited because trauma centers and high-level hospitals that receive the worst patients have higher mortality rates. And it's not because they provide worse care.

When I taught at the college level, I had teacher evaluations from students, along with student grades and observations from the department head. Clearly, IMPACT is moving towards that direction but instead of student evals they use test scores.