s/o: if you're catholic, how do you deal with sticking by the church?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a Catholic believe me I am not sitting here thinking: "Wow, what a great point, maybe I should be Episcopalian."

What in the hell are you people still yammering about?

lol. Because there is a die-hard here that cannot accept that you can still be a believer but not agree with the Catholic Church (thats the shortest possible way I could phrase it).

I understand why many Catholics stay Catholic. But for the die hard to keep coming back, claiming that "pedophilia was different back when" and that "only discpline changes, not doctrine" and ignore the fact that many of us have legitimate grievances with the Catholic Church - not just perceived ones - then we are going to keep coming back. There's more than 3 of us responding to the die hard.

I'm one of the Episcopalians. There are many things I miss about the Catholic Church. But I have found all that I need in the Anglican community. It doesn't mean that I don't want to fix the Mother Church.

[Anonymous]

It looks, to this NP, like there is a die-hard who is baiting you all (I'm not catholic).

I do admire the several of you who are answering her insults with kind, thoughtful responses.

But I wonder if it's a fool's errand - she wants to bug you, she doesn't want to actually listen to anything you say.

[Anonymous]

Question for the poster who posted the long explanation the church has for opposing birth control.

I get that (not that I agree with it), but don't you think natural family planning kind of undoes all that? When I went through pre-cana one of the things that was stressed was how "effective" NFP is. I said, "effective at what," and the response was, "effective at preventing pregnancy." Sounds like CONTRAception to me. If a person is taking elaborate steps (taking temps, checking cervix, watching calendar, and abstaining from having sex when fertile) to keep from getting pregnant how are they then "giving themselves to their spouse, fertility and all" when they are having sex?

I know people also use NFP to conceive, but most also use it as a method of birth control and the church is ok with that. Just because someone could make a mistake and end up pregnant more easily than with an IUD or birth control pills doesn't mean that at the heart of it people are using the method with the full intention of preventing pregnancy. No matter what happens in their heart and mind they are using contraception. With their sanction of NFP the church is approving a form of birth control, just one they hope people will be too lazy to use correctly and thus end up pregnant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's an interesting question: why are the Boy Scouts criticized for doing the very thing that the Catholic Church is criticized for not doing? While the Church looked the other way as certain priests sexually abused altar boys, sweeping serious misconduct under the rug and repeatedly reassigning perpetrators, the Scouts did something different. They rigorously tried to screen out adult volunteers who showed gay or pedophile tendencies, to protect the boys in Scouting. Although there have been reported instances of misconduct involving adults and scouts, such instances have been comparatively few. Yet the BSA is roundly criticized for being "homophobic," while the Church is criticized for overlooking the sexual proclivities of priests.
Seems like a double standard.

The Boy Scouts are being rightly criticized for equating "gay" with "pedophile". They should exclude known pedophiles, but not known homosexuals. Just being gay does not make you a pedophile. And of course, they also discriminate against lesbians, who even if they were pedophiles should pose no risk to boys.

In fact, if the BSA thinks that all gay men should be banned from being leaders because some of them might be pedophiles, shouldn't the BSA also bad all straight women from being den mothers and pack leaders, because some of us after all might be pedophiles?

The Boy Scouts were not equating being gay with being a pedophile, but they certainly made a practical, risk-based decision that an adult homosexual wanting to be a scout leader (remember, this was mostly before gay adoption, so there was no parent connection) might tend toward an attraction for underage youth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a Catholic believe me I am not sitting here thinking: "Wow, what a great point, maybe I should be Episcopalian."

What in the hell are you people still yammering about?

We don't want you to be an Episcopalian. Be Catholic. Hell, I am a Catholic. But just because you are part of the flock, you don't have to act like sheep. If you know your history, you know the Church can change. Don't be like the apologist on this thread. She just parrots what all of us heard over and over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Catholic believe me I am not sitting here thinking: "Wow, what a great point, maybe I should be Episcopalian."

What in the hell are you people still yammering about?

We don't want you to be an Episcopalian. Be Catholic. Hell, I am a Catholic. But just because you are part of the flock, you don't have to act like sheep. If you know your history, you know the Church can change. Don't be like the apologist on this thread. She just parrots what all of us heard over and over.

If something is true, it needs no improvement.

[Anonymous]

There was a great NY Times piece by Nicholas Kristoff about this. In short, he said you can find the very best of the Catholocism and the Church in the priests, nuns and Catholic lay people who sacrifice everything to teach, feed, and sustain the poor and disabled -- particularly those who do this in Africa and Latin America and literally risk their lives each day in dangerous, war-torn areas to do God's work. I am pro-choice, support gay marriage, lived in sin with my DH, etc. and yet I still consider myself Catholic having been raised by East Coast liberals and taught to gently question what I learned in Catholic school (K-12). I support the Jesuit/social justice/public service arm of Catholocism and have dedicated my career to advocating for people experiencing homelessness. I abhor what the Church did to cover up abuse, but I won't let "the Church" ruin Catholocism for me. My faith is too important to me.

[Anonymous]

Snippet from the Kristof piece I mentioned: "My Sunday column is about the other Catholic Church, the one I have learned to admire for its work among the poorest people around the globe. It has tended to be the bishops and cardinals who have gotten the church in trouble, while it’s the amazing priests, nuns and lay-workers who do extraordinary work at home and around the world. And as I note in the column, I’ve learned from meeting nuns in Africa, Asia and Latin America that the coolest and toughest people in the world are nuns. Their orphanages, hospitals and schools keep the world going."

[Anonymous]

Snippet from the Kristof piece I mentioned: "My Sunday column is about the other Catholic Church, the one I have learned to admire for its work among the poorest people around the globe. It has tended to be the bishops and cardinals who have gotten the church in trouble, while it’s the amazing priests, nuns and lay-workers who do extraordinary work at home and around the world. And as I note in the column, I’ve learned from meeting nuns in Africa, Asia and Latin America that the coolest and toughest people in the world are nuns. Their orphanages, hospitals and schools keep the world going."

[Anonymous]

And let's give props to the nuns. Look at Mother Teresa's nuns and the work they do caring for the poorest and sickest people on earth. And personally, I've encountered the kindest nuns at HC hospital. I attended AHC in K'town for HS, so I was very familiar with the order. When I had to have a D&C after miscarrying, a nun called me back to escort me to the surgical area and she asked why I was there. When I told her, I burst into tears and she took my hand and said, "I can't imagine how sad you must feel right now, but I will pray for you that you will one day welcome a baby into the world." And then during my surgery, she sat in the waiting room with my Jewish husband and tried to comfort him. We both felt so much comfort thanks to that kind nun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The Boy Scouts were not equating being gay with being a pedophile, but they certainly made a practical, risk-based decision that an adult homosexual wanting to be a scout leader (remember, this was mostly before gay adoption, so there was no parent connection) might tend toward an attraction for underage youth.

I'm not talking about what happened years ago, but what is happening right now. Right now, lesbian moms who want to be Cub Scout den mothers are being told they can't, and right now, Eagle Scout 16 year olds who happen to be gay are being told they need to leave the BSA. Seriously uncool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Catholic believe me I am not sitting here thinking: "Wow, what a great point, maybe I should be Episcopalian."

What in the hell are you people still yammering about?

We don't want you to be an Episcopalian. Be Catholic. Hell, I am a Catholic. But just because you are part of the flock, you don't have to act like sheep. If you know your history, you know the Church can change. Don't be like the apologist on this thread. She just parrots what all of us heard over and over.

If something is true, it needs no improvement.

LOL! that's sweet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a great NY Times piece by Nicholas Kristoff about this. In short, he said you can find the very best of the Catholocism and the Church in the priests, nuns and Catholic lay people who sacrifice everything to teach, feed, and sustain the poor and disabled -- particularly those who do this in Africa and Latin America and literally risk their lives each day in dangerous, war-torn areas to do God's work. I am pro-choice, support gay marriage, lived in sin with my DH, etc. and yet I still consider myself Catholic having been raised by East Coast liberals and taught to gently question what I learned in Catholic school (K-12). I support the Jesuit/social justice/public service arm of Catholocism and have dedicated my career to advocating for people experiencing homelessness. I abhor what the Church did to cover up abuse, but I won't let "the Church" ruin Catholocism for me. My faith is too important to me.

And therein lies the crux of the matter. CAN you consider yourself Catholic, if you fundamentally disagree with many of the Catholic Church's "hot button" topics? (Gay marriage, abortion, contraception, female priests, premaital sex, married priests?) Isn't being Catholic, ultimately, about submitting yourself to the decisions of the Vatican?

[Anonymous]

No one can tell me that I'm not Catholic. I explained that I practice my religion with the Jesuit/social justice approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one can tell me that I'm not Catholic. I explained that I practice my religion with the Jesuit/social justice approach.

OK, but would the Pope consider you to be Catholic? Are you a "Catholic in good standing"?

Given that to be a Catholic means submitting yourself to the authority of the Church....I mean.