State report says 7 Virginia universities should be monitored as enrollment cliff approaches

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

It would be in a much different place today if it were funded like VT from the start.

It’s just another example of systemic racism that has long-lasting impacts to present day.

Of course, Republicans don’t want to fix it. They want to pretend like there is no problem here at all. They don’t value public education, especially for HBCUs.

DP. Well, that’s utter BS. Why should the state pour money into schools that most black people don’t want to attend? The two HBCUs in VA being discussed here are not attractive to black students, who have a wealth of other universities in-state to choose from. It’s 2024. Why are you advocating for racial segregation?

Relatedly, these HBCUs were from a time when southern states were claiming separate but equal yet everyone knew they weren’t. At the grade school and high school level, the segregated schools were not kept open - the systems merged together. Why did the same thing not happen with colleges?

You are very naive if you think K-12 schools are no longer segregated. Wow

^^stuff I never said and don’t think^^

De jure elementary and high schools were not kept open. They merged. VSU and NSU were de jure schools yet were kept open.

If you want to have a discussion about de facto schools then let’s. But I suspect that the way to end the de facto segregated schools (among which are now VSU and NSU) is just to close them. But that doesn’t seem to be popular on this thread.

Where will their students go? We cant assume they will get in, be able to afford, or feel welcome at primarily white institutions. HBCU’s exist for a reason. If you want to advocate for them to close, what are you doing to ensure their students will find a new college?

What's a primarily white institution (Liberty??) and why would they not feel welcome at non-HBCU schools in general? I'm not pro-white advocacy on anything but if people can't succeed at cookie cutter 4 year publics, perhaps they aren't cut out for schools in general. The community colleges (are they white, too?) are a great affordable option in VA with guaranteed transfer admission to 4 year publics. Given that many HBCU are not competitive at all, I'd assume the rigor wouldn't be that different. Or perhaps some of these 4 year HBCU should just rebrand as residential 2 year specialized colleges with a 4 year option.

This shows a general lack of understanding. There is plenty of literature the could be helpful. However, community college isn’t the answer because historically that is where students were sent that were deemed not good enough. Even if the intentions are good in this case, surely you can see the optics of closing HBCU’s and sending their students to community college are bad.

DP. I would say it's your posts that show a lack of understanding. What the PP is saying makes perfect sense. First, why can't these students attend typical four-year universities that enroll students of all races? Secondly, plenty of students decide to take the community college route to a guaranteed admission at a four-year college - not necessarily because they "were deemed not good enough," but often because they want a cheaper route to that four-yr. degree and CC is one way to accomplish that. It has nothing to do with race and it's strange that you seem so defensive about closing unpopular and unsuccessful schools merely because they have the "HBCU" label. Every state school in VA has a vibrant black community and associated organizations.

You can’t seriously think this has nothing to do with race. Do you really not get it or are you trying to cover up the racial undertones?

Assume IPEDS is right. I think it’s wrong but let’s assume it’s right and the state pays $277 million to VSU tomorrow and the money is put to good use on programs and facilities. Do you think that the enrollment decline is going to reverse itself?

Yes

NP. Look around this very forum. All people care about are rankings. Unless they find a way to shoot up the rankings (which they can't without being magically more selective), how?

All the declining schools in the US are in a Catch-22.

They serve normal kids that are not driven by rankings. Access is a different mission and because of that success is not a ranking. Most people aren’t like the posters on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much has Liberty taken away from enrollment at these smaller schools?

From what I can tell, Liberty is mostly online. There aren't a lot of residential undergrads and only a few thousand are from Virginia. Therefore it seems unlikely Liberty is taking a lot of students from other schools. Not to mention, Liberty students are seeking that particular environment rather than the very different environment of other schools...

This. Liberty draws a population that is not applying to VA state schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

It would be in a much different place today if it were funded like VT from the start.

It’s just another example of systemic racism that has long-lasting impacts to present day.

Of course, Republicans don’t want to fix it. They want to pretend like there is no problem here at all. They don’t value public education, especially for HBCUs.

DP. Well, that’s utter BS. Why should the state pour money into schools that most black people don’t want to attend? The two HBCUs in VA being discussed here are not attractive to black students, who have a wealth of other universities in-state to choose from. It’s 2024. Why are you advocating for racial segregation?

Relatedly, these HBCUs were from a time when southern states were claiming separate but equal yet everyone knew they weren’t. At the grade school and high school level, the segregated schools were not kept open - the systems merged together. Why did the same thing not happen with colleges?

You are very naive if you think K-12 schools are no longer segregated. Wow

^^stuff I never said and don’t think^^

De jure elementary and high schools were not kept open. They merged. VSU and NSU were de jure schools yet were kept open.

If you want to have a discussion about de facto schools then let’s. But I suspect that the way to end the de facto segregated schools (among which are now VSU and NSU) is just to close them. But that doesn’t seem to be popular on this thread.

Where will their students go? We cant assume they will get in, be able to afford, or feel welcome at primarily white institutions. HBCU’s exist for a reason. If you want to advocate for them to close, what are you doing to ensure their students will find a new college?

What's a primarily white institution (Liberty??) and why would they not feel welcome at non-HBCU schools in general? I'm not pro-white advocacy on anything but if people can't succeed at cookie cutter 4 year publics, perhaps they aren't cut out for schools in general. The community colleges (are they white, too?) are a great affordable option in VA with guaranteed transfer admission to 4 year publics. Given that many HBCU are not competitive at all, I'd assume the rigor wouldn't be that different. Or perhaps some of these 4 year HBCU should just rebrand as residential 2 year specialized colleges with a 4 year option.

This shows a general lack of understanding. There is plenty of literature the could be helpful. However, community college isn’t the answer because historically that is where students were sent that were deemed not good enough. Even if the intentions are good in this case, surely you can see the optics of closing HBCU’s and sending their students to community college are bad.

DP. I would say it's your posts that show a lack of understanding. What the PP is saying makes perfect sense. First, why can't these students attend typical four-year universities that enroll students of all races? Secondly, plenty of students decide to take the community college route to a guaranteed admission at a four-year college - not necessarily because they "were deemed not good enough," but often because they want a cheaper route to that four-yr. degree and CC is one way to accomplish that. It has nothing to do with race and it's strange that you seem so defensive about closing unpopular and unsuccessful schools merely because they have the "HBCU" label. Every state school in VA has a vibrant black community and associated organizations.

You can’t seriously think this has nothing to do with race. Do you really not get it or are you trying to cover up the racial undertones?

Assume IPEDS is right. I think it’s wrong but let’s assume it’s right and the state pays $277 million to VSU tomorrow and the money is put to good use on programs and facilities. Do you think that the enrollment decline is going to reverse itself?

Yes

VSU operating budget is $271m so almost exactly double in a one-time shot. You could invest 1/2 of the $277m in 3 buildings at $40 million each and then increase merit aid by $10m for next 10-15 years depending on long the money lasted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How much has Liberty taken away from enrollment at these smaller schools?

From what I can tell, Liberty is mostly online. There aren't a lot of residential undergrads and only a few thousand are from Virginia. Therefore it seems unlikely Liberty is taking a lot of students from other schools. Not to mention, Liberty students are seeking that particular environment rather than the very different environment of other schools...

This. Liberty draws a population that is not applying to VA state schools.

I don't know - there must be some crossover with at least Radford, because Liberty kept sending crap to my kid in NoVA.

A child who has only ever stepped foot in a church with her grandma during Christmas Eve services? Yeah, I think not.

Not to mention the times she has knocked doors with me and/or helped at the Dem table I run at our local ES.

Straight to recycle those things went ;P

[Anonymous]

I think a few schools have at least seen a small uptick in students. I know Radford, Randolph and Sweet Briar have seen an increase in enrollment. We considered all three. She didn't wind up applying to SBC, but Radford and Randolph wound up #2 and #3 on my child's list.

I already said above that finding a niche of some sort will help with marketing. Randolph has already made some strides there with the Take2 curriculum. Radford just needs to figure out the right message - I wasn't kidding when I said they could definitely cater to kids with academic services. I think that is the sweet spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think a few schools have at least seen a small uptick in students. I know Radford, Randolph and Sweet Briar have seen an increase in enrollment. We considered all three. She didn't wind up applying to SBC, but Radford and Randolph wound up #2 and #3 on my child's list.

I already said above that finding a niche of some sort will help with marketing. Randolph has already made some strides there with the Take2 curriculum. Radford just needs to figure out the right message - I wasn't kidding when I said they could definitely cater to kids with academic services. I think that is the sweet spot.

+1 they could follow High Point’s “life skills” script

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

+ 1 million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Would you be happy if your kid didn’t go to college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Enterprise car rental, for example, brags that they are the largest hirer of college graduates each year. You don’t need a college degree to run a car rental desk at an airport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Would you be happy if your kid didn’t go to college?

That's the problem. Most people wouldn't be even though their kid shouldn't be there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Enterprise car rental, for example, brags that they are the largest hirer of college graduates each year. You don’t need a college degree to run a car rental desk at an airport.

Honestly, considering how dumbed-down a lot of public school systems have become, I wouldn't automatically consider a high school graduate to be qualified anymore. You couldn't be confident they'd have the reading comprehension skills necessary to walk a customer through a rental agreement, or the math skills to understand the pricing structure or taxes. They might be qualified, but the degree doesn't necessarily warrant they will be.

A high school graduate from our parents' generation was better educated than many of today's college students. Today's high school diploma is not even a guarantee of basic skills. You really need a college degree for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Would you be happy if your kid didn’t go to college?

In my specific situation, no, but that's because she is a very smart and capable kid - honors, AP and IB courses, high ACT scores, etc. In any era, she's a kid who should go to college.

If she were a mediocre student, I'd encourage her to pursue a different career path - learn a trade, for example.

But, your attitude is a perfect example of what I'm talking about - the (mis)perception that no kid can be happy or successful without going to college. This promulgates exactly what is happening here - failing, expensive schools that don't alter kids' lives at all, except to saddle them with debt to start their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Would you be happy if your kid didn’t go to college?

In my specific situation, no, but that's because she is a very smart and capable kid - honors, AP and IB courses, high ACT scores, etc. In any era, she's a kid who should go to college.

If she were a mediocre student, I'd encourage her to pursue a different career path - learn a trade, for example.

But, your attitude is a perfect example of what I'm talking about - the (mis)perception that no kid can be happy or successful without going to college. This promulgates exactly what is happening here - failing, expensive schools that don't alter kids' lives at all, except to saddle them with debt to start their lives.

The perception is that college educations are more likely to lead to success. It is not a misconception, it's rooted in fact

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Would you be happy if your kid didn’t go to college?

In my specific situation, no, but that's because she is a very smart and capable kid - honors, AP and IB courses, high ACT scores, etc. In any era, she's a kid who should go to college.

If she were a mediocre student, I'd encourage her to pursue a different career path - learn a trade, for example.

But, your attitude is a perfect example of what I'm talking about - the (mis)perception that no kid can be happy or successful without going to college. This promulgates exactly what is happening here - failing, expensive schools that don't alter kids' lives at all, except to saddle them with debt to start their lives.

Ah, so your kid is special and should go to college but other kids should not.