Culture essay question. Feels like a trap

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

Let me give my anecdotal story.
A black classmate complained about how everyone at their ivy was treating them like they were there based on affirmative action.
They put on their stuyvesant sweatshirt and suddenly everyone treated them like they belonged there.
She did this to argue that these were racist places. I pointed out that the fact that if people treated her differently, it was because she came from a school that selected its students purely on merit is what gave her legitimacy in an environment where half the black kids were there based on racial preferences.

And it is unlikely that you were a black kid at CalTech.

It’s unlikely…exactly. That’s why people othered me. Merit admissions will make it rarer for black people in higher education and other others. I think your disbelief is a big signal of this and speaks volumes.

It’s cool that she went to Stuyvesant, people have respect for it. But I don’t think high school students know anything about magnet school admissions like you think they do. They would’ve liked her if she put on a choate sweatshirt, and her father was a major donor and she got in without any merit. One of my best friends went to Stuyvesant in college- no one cared lol.

I know there are black kids at caltech. I don't think you were ever one of them. They are not generally a whiny bunch.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

Yeah, it is. It's a perfectly valid answer. Especially when those non-minority groups are wildly overrepresented and benefit from systemic biases that ensure their continued overrepresentation.

We disagree. I don’t want any discrimination against anyone. Systematic biases aren’t accounting for high SAT scores.

If you’re fine with gutting athletic departments, fine arts recruitment, geographic diversity, socioeconomic diversity, legacy, gender minority recruitment in STEM, veterans and community college recruitment-based admissions such as at Princeton for transfer, and probably 10 more other admissions boosts for the application process then I totally agree. Our universities will be blander, but it follows your no discrimination. Also get rid of those extracurriculars- just a vague playground for rich students. Only GPA and SAT and AP coursework. Imagine how good that system would be

This is how most countries do it and they seem to be able to achieve reasonably good results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

The only way to get institutional diversity is to select for it. Doesn't matter if it's for income distribution, athletics, the music program, ethnicity, or gender (in some cases). An institution is not going to field their varsity athletic teams if they dont select students that participate in those sports. They may not get a talented oboist to replace the graduating one, if they dont select for it. Nobody cries 'discrimination' for the trumpeter that allegedly lost 'their' spot to the oboist.

IMHO, absolutely nothing wrong with an institution seeking a population that reflects the societal diversity in the US. Also nothing wrong with seeking enough representation of groups such that they can feel included and not the 'only one' on campus. This isn't 'discrimination' of another group if another group is represented and sometimes even over-represented.

The supreme court and the constitution disagrees with you.

NP. The current very conservative SC with two overtly partisan justices (Alito and Thomas). Not the Constitution. And not the several other SC panels.

Diversity is important not just to the underrepresented, but yo everyone. It creates a richer educational environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

If we do not have physicians of color and wait out improving education for k-12 (which would take maybe 5-6 decades minimum to get on equal footing), we will have a health crisis for our communities of color. Not every thing can just be stalled out for the broaches of Meritocracy.

We've had AA for over 5 decades. Where's all the K-12 progress you say would happen in parallel with racial preferences?

Nobody wants the doctor that got into medical school because of their skin color.

Yes, luckily those doctors don’t exist and you are just this small thing we call Racist.

There’s a glut of med school applicants and an artificial low amount of seats to keep doctor salaries high. Everyone who gets the chance is qualified, and It’s repulsive that you think med school boards want incompetent people in their classes. If you can’t trust a doctor that had to go through the admissions process, completed board exams and has gone through residency…that’s a you issue.

Yes affirmative action has been in place a while. Turns out economically depriving an entire race for the skin color for centuries kinda pushes people back. If you want examples of highly successful black people who are benefiting from the system, the bulk are foreign born or immigrant parent kids, just like Asian Americans who were selected from the wealthiest in their societies.

They DO exist. Check out the massive number of summer medical programs exclusively for minorities. Check out the stats. There was a report released showing the med school admissions rates for minorities and non minorities based on testing a grades. Guess which one allowed admits with lower stats. It’s inequitable but true.

You can’t have it this way (no doctors exist like this) AND also have it where you say that lower standards are necessary to undo past injustices. Pick a side.

Your evidence is there’s summer programs for minorities? What does that have to do with the qualifications of being a Medical doctor. You haven’t presented any actual contention

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

Yeah, it is. It's a perfectly valid answer. Especially when those non-minority groups are wildly overrepresented and benefit from systemic biases that ensure their continued overrepresentation.

We disagree. I don’t want any discrimination against anyone. Systematic biases aren’t accounting for high SAT scores.

If you’re fine with gutting athletic departments, fine arts recruitment, geographic diversity, socioeconomic diversity, legacy, gender minority recruitment in STEM, veterans and community college recruitment-based admissions such as at Princeton for transfer, and probably 10 more other admissions boosts for the application process then I totally agree. Our universities will be blander, but it follows your no discrimination. Also get rid of those extracurriculars- just a vague playground for rich students. Only GPA and SAT and AP coursework. Imagine how good that system would be

This is how most countries do it and they seem to be able to achieve reasonably good results.

We have the best higher education system in the world, however.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

Let me give my anecdotal story.
A black classmate complained about how everyone at their ivy was treating them like they were there based on affirmative action.
They put on their stuyvesant sweatshirt and suddenly everyone treated them like they belonged there.
She did this to argue that these were racist places. I pointed out that the fact that if people treated her differently, it was because she came from a school that selected its students purely on merit is what gave her legitimacy in an environment where half the black kids were there based on racial preferences.

And it is unlikely that you were a black kid at CalTech.

It’s unlikely…exactly. That’s why people othered me. Merit admissions will make it rarer for black people in higher education and other others. I think your disbelief is a big signal of this and speaks volumes.

It’s cool that she went to Stuyvesant, people have respect for it. But I don’t think high school students know anything about magnet school admissions like you think they do. They would’ve liked her if she put on a choate sweatshirt, and her father was a major donor and she got in without any merit. One of my best friends went to Stuyvesant in college- no one cared lol.

I know there are black kids at caltech. I don't think you were ever one of them. They are not generally a whiny bunch.

I’m so sad I couldn’t convince Anonymous off of DCUM of my degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

Let me give my anecdotal story.
A black classmate complained about how everyone at their ivy was treating them like they were there based on affirmative action.
They put on their stuyvesant sweatshirt and suddenly everyone treated them like they belonged there.
She did this to argue that these were racist places. I pointed out that the fact that if people treated her differently, it was because she came from a school that selected its students purely on merit is what gave her legitimacy in an environment where half the black kids were there based on racial preferences.

And it is unlikely that you were a black kid at CalTech.

It’s unlikely…exactly. That’s why people othered me. Merit admissions will make it rarer for black people in higher education and other others. I think your disbelief is a big signal of this and speaks volumes.

It’s cool that she went to Stuyvesant, people have respect for it. But I don’t think high school students know anything about magnet school admissions like you think they do. They would’ve liked her if she put on a choate sweatshirt, and her father was a major donor and she got in without any merit. One of my best friends went to Stuyvesant in college- no one cared lol.

I know there are black kids at caltech. I don't think you were ever one of them. They are not generally a whiny bunch.

They are pretty whiny: https://caltechforblacklives.com/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

No you can't, and yes it's going to happen anyway, but you don't have to make it even worse.

Hmm how do I frame this for you. It still matters that you are in the room. Sure it may suck to know you were pushed by institutional factors to get in (I really don’t think this matters that much, be happy you got into a top college and move on), but representation isn’t a buzzword- it’s confronting really horrid inequality.

It’s usually easier for people to understand if you think more in terms of sex. Women have historical massive disadvantages for getting into science careers- especially physics. We could approach this by saying “only the best women at the same level as the men can get into the Physics program.” But remember that less than a decade or so ago, most stem activities had near zero women, terribly sexist cultures, and there was a dearth of “women in stem” opportunities like today.

So what you’re really doing is saying “Women you have two choices. Deal with really crappy men and experience relentless harassment and lack of representation for your entire career or…do something else.” I wonder why so many women chose option 2 before we gave admissions boost to women.

If you don't belong in the room, noone cares that you are at the table.
If what got you in the room was pity and not ability, you are a token.

Women aren't getting carried over the finish line, they are the majority of law students. They are the majority of medical students. There isn't a large difference in test scores between the women at ivy+ and the men at ivy+. There is a very large difference in test scores between the asians at ivy+ and the blacks at ivy+

Go a few decades back and women were definitely carried to the finish line. You actually have to be joking. They still are in tech and some corners of finance.

Do you have any personal experience with elite colleges to come to the conclusion that black people don’t deserve a seat at the Ivy table.

Yes. I went to an elite college (but not HYPSM) and an elite law school but not (HSY) and in both cases it wasn't hard to notice that the black students were frequently at the bottom of the curve.

Black Ivy alum do very well and excel in the environment.

You don't need an ivy degree to do well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

If we do not have physicians of color and wait out improving education for k-12 (which would take maybe 5-6 decades minimum to get on equal footing), we will have a health crisis for our communities of color. Not every thing can just be stalled out for the broaches of Meritocracy.

We've had AA for over 5 decades. Where's all the K-12 progress you say would happen in parallel with racial preferences?

Nobody wants the doctor that got into medical school because of their skin color.

Yes, luckily those doctors don’t exist and you are just this small thing we call Racist.

There’s a glut of med school applicants and an artificial low amount of seats to keep doctor salaries high. Everyone who gets the chance is qualified, and It’s repulsive that you think med school boards want incompetent people in their classes. If you can’t trust a doctor that had to go through the admissions process, completed board exams and has gone through residency…that’s a you issue.

Yes affirmative action has been in place a while. Turns out economically depriving an entire race for the skin color for centuries kinda pushes people back. If you want examples of highly successful black people who are benefiting from the system, the bulk are foreign born or immigrant parent kids, just like Asian Americans who were selected from the wealthiest in their societies.

They DO exist. Check out the massive number of summer medical programs exclusively for minorities. Check out the stats. There was a report released showing the med school admissions rates for minorities and non minorities based on testing a grades. Guess which one allowed admits with lower stats. It’s inequitable but true.

You can’t have it this way (no doctors exist like this) AND also have it where you say that lower standards are necessary to undo past injustices. Pick a side.

Your evidence is there’s summer programs for minorities? What does that have to do with the qualifications of being a Medical doctor. You haven’t presented any actual contention

Stop seeing what you want to see. You ignored that I also said, “Check out the stats. There was a report released showing the med school admissions rates for minorities and non minorities based on testing and grades.”

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphically-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics-being-admitted-to-us-medical-schools/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

Yeah, it is. It's a perfectly valid answer. Especially when those non-minority groups are wildly overrepresented and benefit from systemic biases that ensure their continued overrepresentation.

We disagree. I don’t want any discrimination against anyone. Systematic biases aren’t accounting for high SAT scores.

If you’re fine with gutting athletic departments, fine arts recruitment, geographic diversity, socioeconomic diversity, legacy, gender minority recruitment in STEM, veterans and community college recruitment-based admissions such as at Princeton for transfer, and probably 10 more other admissions boosts for the application process then I totally agree. Our universities will be blander, but it follows your no discrimination. Also get rid of those extracurriculars- just a vague playground for rich students. Only GPA and SAT and AP coursework. Imagine how good that system would be

FYI: I am a minority and I still think minorities should not have a different review standard.

Why did you bring this up? Other poster could be a minority. It doesn’t matter. Argue with facts, not your identity.

I wish you felt this way about college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

If admissions were completely race-blind then any complaints about minorities getting in would have a different basis. It would of course still feel very very ugly, and I would feel justified at being angry at people who are racist. However, I would rather not pile on top of this the belief that all members of my minority group did not have to pass the same intellectual standard to get in. That feels worse to me. I get that you feel differently, but this is my stance.

Do you think there’s a societal impact if we stop admitting diverse classes of people to be in our medical schools, congressional halls, leaders of our non profits, etc.

Yes, diversity is important but achieving it by discriminating against other non minority groups is not the answer.

Yeah, it is. It's a perfectly valid answer. Especially when those non-minority groups are wildly overrepresented and benefit from systemic biases that ensure their continued overrepresentation.

We disagree. I don’t want any discrimination against anyone. Systematic biases aren’t accounting for high SAT scores.

If you’re fine with gutting athletic departments, fine arts recruitment, geographic diversity, socioeconomic diversity, legacy, gender minority recruitment in STEM, veterans and community college recruitment-based admissions such as at Princeton for transfer, and probably 10 more other admissions boosts for the application process then I totally agree. Our universities will be blander, but it follows your no discrimination. Also get rid of those extracurriculars- just a vague playground for rich students. Only GPA and SAT and AP coursework. Imagine how good that system would be

FYI: I am a minority and I still think minorities should not have a different review standard.

Why did you bring this up? Other poster could be a minority. It doesn’t matter. Argue with facts, not your identity.

I wish you felt this way about college admissions.

I do feel this way. Why are you defensive about not bringing up your identity and then advocating for the right thing which is admissions without pandering to identities. I don’t think you’re correct just because you’re black or whatever

[Anonymous]

https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-failed-medical-school-how-racial-preferences-supposedly-outlawed-in-california-have-persisted-at-ucla/

https://sjvsun.com/education/report-ucla-engaging-in-illegal-race-based-admissions-process-for-med-school/

https://www.thecollegefix.com/shocking-decline-ucla-med-school-prioritized-racial-diversity-leading-to-decline-report-says/

[Anonymous]

^^ showing this still happens

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This question was added after John Roberts said specifically this is how race could be brought up in an application.

But yes, colleges still are only looking for URM. Not Asian etc.

So if you’re white or Asian, etc, write about the pool or the gym or the neighborhood skate park.

But if you’re in a racial group they want, this is where you add it

If they don't want white and Asian students why do they accept so many?

They don't want white or Asian students.. because there are already so many of them!
Meaning it is just more competitive amongst your peers if you are white or Asian, and less if you're not. Not that schools don't want white or Asian students at all.

Really unpopular opinion but colleges love Asian students and they’re highly overrepresented and nag as if they’re martyrs because they have to go to ucla or brown instead of Harvard- their parents’ dream

Asians are over-represented and that is the problem. They have too many and need to be more selective with asians in order to avoid almost half the students being asian.

Then ask Asian students if they’d be okay with low performing Asian groups receiving a big boost and see how quickly the tides change on their opinions. Same with including them in AA.

I belong to an underrepresented, disadvantaged Asian subgroup. I still very much disagree with using race or ethnicity in admissions even if it were to boost my kid's chances of admission. The problem is that when a group is favored like this, they get to college and are discriminated against because other people assume they are not smart enough to be there. I do not want this happening to my kid.

They’re going to be discriminated anyway. I went to Caltech as a minority, and it had 0% different effect on how people perceived as dumber and less successful than them. This was when Caltech had one of the most “meritocratic” admissions processes: read useless measures of academic performance which mean nothing on a national scale when we have a district-dependent education system.

People are going to discriminate against the black kids no matter if they got in on merit, got in with AA, or hell if they don’t get in, there’ll still be complaints. You can’t goody tissues yourself out of racism.

No you can't, and yes it's going to happen anyway, but you don't have to make it even worse.

Hmm how do I frame this for you. It still matters that you are in the room. Sure it may suck to know you were pushed by institutional factors to get in (I really don’t think this matters that much, be happy you got into a top college and move on), but representation isn’t a buzzword- it’s confronting really horrid inequality.

It’s usually easier for people to understand if you think more in terms of sex. Women have historical massive disadvantages for getting into science careers- especially physics. We could approach this by saying “only the best women at the same level as the men can get into the Physics program.” But remember that less than a decade or so ago, most stem activities had near zero women, terribly sexist cultures, and there was a dearth of “women in stem” opportunities like today.

So what you’re really doing is saying “Women you have two choices. Deal with really crappy men and experience relentless harassment and lack of representation for your entire career or…do something else.” I wonder why so many women chose option 2 before we gave admissions boost to women.

If you don't belong in the room, noone cares that you are at the table.
If what got you in the room was pity and not ability, you are a token.

Women aren't getting carried over the finish line, they are the majority of law students. They are the majority of medical students. There isn't a large difference in test scores between the women at ivy+ and the men at ivy+. There is a very large difference in test scores between the asians at ivy+ and the blacks at ivy+

Go a few decades back and women were definitely carried to the finish line. You actually have to be joking. They still are in tech and some corners of finance.

Do you have any personal experience with elite colleges to come to the conclusion that black people don’t deserve a seat at the Ivy table.

Yes. I went to an elite college (but not HYPSM) and an elite law school but not (HSY) and in both cases it wasn't hard to notice that the black students were frequently at the bottom of the curve.

Black Ivy alum do very well and excel in the environment.

You don't need an ivy degree to do well.

How did you go about figuring that out? Seems biased more than anything. I went to an elite school and hardly knew or cared about anyone else’s grades. Who had time to even think about that? There’s no reverse version of the deans list that lists out the bottom 10% students.

I never argued that you needed an Ivy degree to do well but clearly these students are doing pretty damned well for people who aren’t supposed to have a seat at the table. I think a significant portion of the college population could handle ivy-level work and the rigor is way overblown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-failed-medical-school-how-racial-preferences-supposedly-outlawed-in-california-have-persisted-at-ucla/

https://sjvsun.com/education/report-ucla-engaging-in-illegal-race-based-admissions-process-for-med-school/

https://www.thecollegefix.com/shocking-decline-ucla-med-school-prioritized-racial-diversity-leading-to-decline-report-says/

We severely need to bring computer and source literacy back into public education.