AEM post/discussion re racism and choice schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want more of what ATS does. I want more of what Campbell does, but with a different principal.

What's wrong with the principal?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".

Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.

One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".

Yes, our society still heavily relies on the uncompensated labor of women. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".

Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.

One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.

That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.

People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He named his link to the data "[his name] is probably wrong." I took it as a conversation starter, and it did seem to start a conversation.

Is he responding to comments?

No, which I find so annoying. If he’s going to be posting this stuff then he should at least explain and defend his view. I don’t understand that other person who keeps posting and defending him and trying to say “what I think he means is xyz…”

I chose an option school to avoid my neighborhood school and it’s not because I’m racist. I’m not white. It’s because my neighborhood score has low academic standards, behavioral issues, etc. If my neighborhood school had the same demographics but had a curriculum and expectations more like ATS I would not have left!

Back when we had to make this decision a decade ago our “neighborhood school” wasn’t being used by any of our neighbors, so there was no reason for us to consider it. We would have had to walk our kid to school (not something we wanted to do daily, taking 20 mins out of each morning before a commute), and kid wouldn’t have known anyone. Also, it was overcrowded and had abysmal scores. Literally nothing could’ve compelled us to send DC there. If there hadn’t been a public alternative we would’ve moved or gone private like the families who didn’t get into an option school by lottery.

Nobody wants their kid to be a lonely only, to have a birthday party nobody shows up to, to be teased for being “rich” or white, all things we had heard happened to the one family who did use the neighborhood school (a couple years ahead of us). They eventually moved to the Tuckahoe zone. Let’s talk about that. Okay?

And this cuts both ways. People of color often don't want their kid to be the only person of color in a class, and North Arlington schools are so segregated that this is discouraging for people who might otherwise want to live there and can afford it. Segregation is bad for everyone. So sick of people who act like Arlington can't or shouldn't do better, or that everyone would flee to private if the elementary schools were integrated. Some might, most would not. And why would we pander to people who won't attend an integrated school???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He named his link to the data "[his name] is probably wrong." I took it as a conversation starter, and it did seem to start a conversation.

Is he responding to comments?

No, which I find so annoying. If he’s going to be posting this stuff then he should at least explain and defend his view. I don’t understand that other person who keeps posting and defending him and trying to say “what I think he means is xyz…”

I chose an option school to avoid my neighborhood school and it’s not because I’m racist. I’m not white. It’s because my neighborhood score has low academic standards, behavioral issues, etc. If my neighborhood school had the same demographics but had a curriculum and expectations more like ATS I would not have left!

Back when we had to make this decision a decade ago our “neighborhood school” wasn’t being used by any of our neighbors, so there was no reason for us to consider it. We would have had to walk our kid to school (not something we wanted to do daily, taking 20 mins out of each morning before a commute), and kid wouldn’t have known anyone. Also, it was overcrowded and had abysmal scores. Literally nothing could’ve compelled us to send DC there. If there hadn’t been a public alternative we would’ve moved or gone private like the families who didn’t get into an option school by lottery.

Nobody wants their kid to be a lonely only, to have a birthday party nobody shows up to, to be teased for being “rich” or white, all things we had heard happened to the one family who did use the neighborhood school (a couple years ahead of us). They eventually moved to the Tuckahoe zone. Let’s talk about that. Okay?

And this cuts both ways. People of color often don't want their kid to be the only person of color in a class, and North Arlington schools are so segregated that this is discouraging for people who might otherwise want to live there and can afford it. Segregation is bad for everyone. So sick of people who act like Arlington can't or shouldn't do better, or that everyone would flee to private if the elementary schools were integrated. Some might, most would not. And why would we pander to people who won't attend an integrated school???

The problem is that the open seats we have are mostly in North Arlington schools. Except for options. we're not going to bus brown and blacks kids to North Arlington. Except for options, we're not going to bus white kids to our overcrowded South Arlington schools. New boundaries will not move more racially or economically diverse kids into our most lily-white schools. The County is pushing more housing onto Langston Boulevard and that will help but it will take years before we see a real change.

[Anonymous]

You’re pretty much describing Alexandria Public Schools

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

I'm an ATS mom who works for money. Do I have to move my kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He named his link to the data "[his name] is probably wrong." I took it as a conversation starter, and it did seem to start a conversation.

Is he responding to comments?

No, which I find so annoying. If he’s going to be posting this stuff then he should at least explain and defend his view. I don’t understand that other person who keeps posting and defending him and trying to say “what I think he means is xyz…”

I chose an option school to avoid my neighborhood school and it’s not because I’m racist. I’m not white. It’s because my neighborhood score has low academic standards, behavioral issues, etc. If my neighborhood school had the same demographics but had a curriculum and expectations more like ATS I would not have left!

Back when we had to make this decision a decade ago our “neighborhood school” wasn’t being used by any of our neighbors, so there was no reason for us to consider it. We would have had to walk our kid to school (not something we wanted to do daily, taking 20 mins out of each morning before a commute), and kid wouldn’t have known anyone. Also, it was overcrowded and had abysmal scores. Literally nothing could’ve compelled us to send DC there. If there hadn’t been a public alternative we would’ve moved or gone private like the families who didn’t get into an option school by lottery.

Nobody wants their kid to be a lonely only, to have a birthday party nobody shows up to, to be teased for being “rich” or white, all things we had heard happened to the one family who did use the neighborhood school (a couple years ahead of us). They eventually moved to the Tuckahoe zone. Let’s talk about that. Okay?

And this cuts both ways. People of color often don't want their kid to be the only person of color in a class, and North Arlington schools are so segregated that this is discouraging for people who might otherwise want to live there and can afford it. Segregation is bad for everyone. So sick of people who act like Arlington can't or shouldn't do better, or that everyone would flee to private if the elementary schools were integrated. Some might, most would not. And why would we pander to people who won't attend an integrated school???

The problem is that the open seats we have are mostly in North Arlington schools. Except for options. we're not going to bus brown and blacks kids to North Arlington. Except for options, we're not going to bus white kids to our overcrowded South Arlington schools. New boundaries will not move more racially or economically diverse kids into our most lily-white schools. The County is pushing more housing onto Langston Boulevard and that will help but it will take years before we see a real change.

Not really. Not until Langston Blvd has the concentration of CAFs that Columbia Pike/Arlington Mill neighborhood have. And that will be .... never.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".

Yes, our society still heavily relies on the uncompensated labor of women. Thanks for pointing that out.

While denigrating them at the same time!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He named his link to the data "[his name] is probably wrong." I took it as a conversation starter, and it did seem to start a conversation.

Is he responding to comments?

No, which I find so annoying. If he’s going to be posting this stuff then he should at least explain and defend his view. I don’t understand that other person who keeps posting and defending him and trying to say “what I think he means is xyz…”

I chose an option school to avoid my neighborhood school and it’s not because I’m racist. I’m not white. It’s because my neighborhood score has low academic standards, behavioral issues, etc. If my neighborhood school had the same demographics but had a curriculum and expectations more like ATS I would not have left!

Back when we had to make this decision a decade ago our “neighborhood school” wasn’t being used by any of our neighbors, so there was no reason for us to consider it. We would have had to walk our kid to school (not something we wanted to do daily, taking 20 mins out of each morning before a commute), and kid wouldn’t have known anyone. Also, it was overcrowded and had abysmal scores. Literally nothing could’ve compelled us to send DC there. If there hadn’t been a public alternative we would’ve moved or gone private like the families who didn’t get into an option school by lottery.

Nobody wants their kid to be a lonely only, to have a birthday party nobody shows up to, to be teased for being “rich” or white, all things we had heard happened to the one family who did use the neighborhood school (a couple years ahead of us). They eventually moved to the Tuckahoe zone. Let’s talk about that. Okay?

And this cuts both ways. People of color often don't want their kid to be the only person of color in a class, and North Arlington schools are so segregated that this is discouraging for people who might otherwise want to live there and can afford it. Segregation is bad for everyone. So sick of people who act like Arlington can't or shouldn't do better, or that everyone would flee to private if the elementary schools were integrated. Some might, most would not. And why would we pander to people who won't attend an integrated school???

Yes, and I don’t fault them either. It can’t be left to individual decisions. Integrated schools are the business of the decision makers, leaders, and they have decided they DO NOT CARE. So I gave up and am just trying to do what’s best for my own kids. So far, it has meant sending them to integrated schools, some option and some neighborhood, where they are in the racial/ethnic/SES minority, but not an only, because I agree that integrated schools are what is best for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

People who paid more for the same/older/smaller house in a north Arlington zip code also "opted out" of the south Arlington schools, but with money, so they don't get called out on it by people like the AEM poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.

So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.

People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.

I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.

It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.

Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.

Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.

And I don’t blame people for it!

Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.

DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.

All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.

Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.

Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.

Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.

I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).

ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.

If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.

"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home

Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.

All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?

Keep digging for excuses!

No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".

Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.

One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.

That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.

People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.

ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.

Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.

This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.

Jobs were in Fair Lakes and Ballston. In fact a lot of jobs in VA happen to be more concentrated along the 66 corridor so it makes sense that people want to live in Vienna/Falls Church/N Arlington.

The underlying issue is a development one. The county has concentrated lower income areas and that trickles down to where employers put job centers. Blaming individual families for choosing where to live based on factors outside their control is one way to go about it I guess. But I also have a lot of wealthy neighbors who are POC (black, Asian, + mixed families). Are they racist for wanting good commutes and schools that do not have the issues that come with higher poverty rates? Or is it only white families that are bad for this?

The underlying issue is fixing the county’s pattern of development instead of trying to force people through the use of school boundaries or judging them for choosing option schools. FWIW I support denser development along areas close to metro and would like to see more SES mixture in the north part of the county and I know plenty of other friends/neighbors who don’t exactly love raising kids in a concentration of wealth.

But we need to stop asking schools and individual families to take on the brunt of fixing societal issues. If you want to call a bunch of people you don’t know in a different zip code racist though, I hope that helps you feel better.

No, the county concentrated black areas through racist housing convenants, and those areas still have lower property values and higher proportions of students of color. Those schools were segregated first, and higher poverty later as wealthier people bid up housing prices in north Arlington between 2000-2015 to avoid those schools. This issue is absolutely based in race as a result of Virginia's history, even if none of us lived here 60 years ago and don't see ourselves as racist. Arlington's neighborhood school boundaries--not the option/choice schools--preserve racism. The AEM post completely misses the point; if anything, it is allowing everyone to avoid the real conversation.