Summer swim absurd age rules

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why can't the cutoff be December 31st and cover the entire year?

But what would the purpose of that be in an individual sport like swimming? There are reasons team sports have age cutoffs that last throughout a season, but swimming is the swimmer vs. the clock and there is no team cohesiveness that gets disrupted. Big club relays consist of swimmers from different sites who may not have ever swum a relay together before, so that isn’t a reason either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

How does it help with recruiting? No one is recruiting kids the summer after senior year.

First, for those who can’t read, I am not talking about swimming. If the kid weren’t redshirted, they’d graduate a year earlier and lose out on the extra year to develop in the sport before college. I recommend it for boys. No regrets. So, while it sucks for a summer bday boy in the sport when they’re young, they get to play and be recruited the summer they turn 18, unlike their peers who generally are younger when the recruits are looking at them.

Lol, for those who can’t read a thread that is about…swimming. But thanks for gracing a swimming thread with your fascinating theories about redshirting that don’t relate to swimming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Agreed. And the reaction time issue affects both the start and the finish so likely cancels out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

How does it help with recruiting? No one is recruiting kids the summer after senior year.

First, for those who can’t read, I am not talking about swimming. If the kid weren’t redshirted, they’d graduate a year earlier and lose out on the extra year to develop in the sport before college. I recommend it for boys. No regrets. So, while it sucks for a summer bday boy in the sport when they’re young, they get to play and be recruited the summer they turn 18, unlike their peers who generally are younger when the recruits are looking at them.

This discussion is about swim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

Most of the exceptions to your last statement are kids who are not yet comfortable getting in and out of turns but can consistently repeat their stroke over the longer distance leg of each length of the pool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

Obviously you agree. The divided people between the line in the sand has parents/kids who this rule helps (for the rule) and those it hurts (against the rule). Your kid lifeguarding or not has nothing to do with this rule. The lifeguarding age rule applies to everyone.

And so does the June 1 cutoff! Sheesh, you must be super dense. Perhaps you should read the past two messages again, slowly and maybe you’ll understand the very reasonable point the PP made and I agreed with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

Obviously you agree. The divided people between the line in the sand has parents/kids who this rule helps (for the rule) and those it hurts (against the rule). Your kid lifeguarding or not has nothing to do with this rule. The lifeguarding age rule applies to everyone.

So does the summer swim age rule.

No, it doesn’t. It applies to NVSL. Lifeguarding applies to all kids, everywhere all days of the year.

Yeah, you really are stupid and also myopic. NVSL is not the only league with this rule and it’s not even the only league with this rule in the DMV. If kids want to life guard over the summer and they have a late summer birthday they can’t do it for an entire other year. Just like with camps, as the pp eloquently explained. But as you are oblivious to the fact that other swim leagues exist AND the fact that there are multiple disadvantages to summer birthdays, I think there’s no point in discussing with you. Clearly your little darling should never be disadvantaged ever!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

How is this a big deal? Mine has a September birthday so will miss the entire year. They don't care.

Because some kids with August birthdays were sent to school on time and weren’t red shirted. If you have a summer birthday and want to do things with kids in your same grade at school (camps, jobs, life milestones) you find that often you can’t because there are age cut offs that don’t match the grade level. Your September birthday kid who has never faced this is as relevant as any other non summer birthday, that is, it has nothing to do with this conversation at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why can't the cutoff be December 31st and cover the entire year?

No, why not do it by height?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

Most of the exceptions to your last statement are kids who are not yet comfortable getting in and out of turns but can consistently repeat their stroke over the longer distance leg of each length of the pool.

The issue isn't age, its skill and training. You cannot compare club or year round swim to summer swimmers and just summer alone aren't going to learn those techniques in only 6 weeks. I have a slower club swimmer. They are up three days a week at 4:30 to swim. If they cannot do turns you need to teach them or stop complaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

How is this a big deal? Mine has a September birthday so will miss the entire year. They don't care.

Because some kids with August birthdays were sent to school on time and weren’t red shirted. If you have a summer birthday and want to do things with kids in your same grade at school (camps, jobs, life milestones) you find that often you can’t because there are age cut offs that don’t match the grade level. Your September birthday kid who has never faced this is as relevant as any other non summer birthday, that is, it has nothing to do with this conversation at all.

And, again, who cares. I have generally the youngest child as my September kid went to school at age 4/5 so you are telling me my kid has never faced this. My kid faces it every day in everything they do but yet, they don't complain. They are the absolute youngest for school and yet, they still do academically very well and they put the effort into swim, even though they aren't the fastest or best. My kid will never have friends exactly the same age or grade. In summer swim, the same age kids are usually a grade below them, or technically July-August kids could be same grade or a grade younger. You probably don't have a child in this situation and yet, you complain. It impacts my family, not yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why can't the cutoff be December 31st and cover the entire year?

No, why not do it by height?

Alphabetical order by middle name is obviously the fairest way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

Most of the exceptions to your last statement are kids who are not yet comfortable getting in and out of turns but can consistently repeat their stroke over the longer distance leg of each length of the pool.

The issue isn't age, its skill and training. You cannot compare club or year round swim to summer swimmers and just summer alone aren't going to learn those techniques in only 6 weeks. I have a slower club swimmer. They are up three days a week at 4:30 to swim. If they cannot do turns you need to teach them or stop complaining.

I wasn't complaining in the least. I was simply pointing out why some, mostly inexperienced, kids tend to outswim their scy to lcm conversions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

Most of the exceptions to your last statement are kids who are not yet comfortable getting in and out of turns but can consistently repeat their stroke over the longer distance leg of each length of the pool.

The issue isn't age, its skill and training. You cannot compare club or year round swim to summer swimmers and just summer alone aren't going to learn those techniques in only 6 weeks. I have a slower club swimmer. They are up three days a week at 4:30 to swim. If they cannot do turns you need to teach them or stop complaining.

I wasn't complaining in the least. I was simply pointing out why some, mostly inexperienced, kids tend to outswim their scy to lcm conversions.

Age by a year is not so much an issue as it is natural ability, how much they practice, etc. you are using age as an excuse. The kids who out swim work hard and have a lot of natural talent. They are swimming 7-9+ days a week.