Summer swim absurd age rules

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

Obviously you agree. The divided people between the line in the sand has parents/kids who this rule helps (for the rule) and those it hurts (against the rule). Your kid lifeguarding or not has nothing to do with this rule. The lifeguarding age rule applies to everyone.

So does the summer swim age rule.

No, it doesn’t. It applies to NVSL. Lifeguarding applies to all kids, everywhere all days of the year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only thing that will make it more fair is to make the age brackets smaller, like one year instead of two. But that creates other problems like doubling the lengths of meets.

You wouldn’t need to double the length of the meets. You can swim kids in the same heat, but have the times data pull into separate age groups. This is done frequently in winter swim. They swim 9-12 and then the data is pulled into separate 9-10 and 11-12 results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

How is this a big deal? Mine has a September birthday so will miss the entire year. They don't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

How does it help with recruiting? No one is recruiting kids the summer after senior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

Not everyone cares about recruiting for college. I have a child with a fall birthday so they can swim the summer before college. However, I don't want them to be recruited for college nor would I support them doing swim competitively for college as I want them to have a normal college experience and focus on their education. Its not like most of these kids will swim after college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

No one gets an extra summer. Every kid gets exactly one summer as a 17 yo and one summer as an 18 yo. Their grade isn't relevant to the cut off for summer swim. It's not a school sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

How does it help with recruiting? No one is recruiting kids the summer after senior year.

And perhaps more importantly no one is getting recruited off of summer swim.

[Anonymous]

Why can't the cutoff be December 31st and cover the entire year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Weird. I did summer swim and we all survived with one timer per lane. I didn’t feel like it was meaningless - the point was to beat the other team, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to see the date moved to August 1st!

That just causes the opposite "problem". Kids who are 8 for the entire season now swim in the 9/10 age group. Is that really better?

It’s not better. It’s the way our kid’s other sport is done and there are not quite 13 year olds playing in the national champs against boys that have hit puberty and are nearly 16. They ride the bench a lot in that age group.

Playing, are you taking about swimming? There needs to be a cut off. Why August 1st?

No i said I was talking about our other kid’s sport. I don’t know why it’s August first, but it is. And the championships are in July. The bonus is that the summer birthday boys get to play an extra season as 18 year olds so it helps with college recruiting. Another reason to redshirt your summer boys!

How does it help with recruiting? No one is recruiting kids the summer after senior year.

First, for those who can’t read, I am not talking about swimming. If the kid weren’t redshirted, they’d graduate a year earlier and lose out on the extra year to develop in the sport before college. I recommend it for boys. No regrets. So, while it sucks for a summer bday boy in the sport when they’re young, they get to play and be recruited the summer they turn 18, unlike their peers who generally are younger when the recruits are looking at them.