Hamilton or Wesleyan?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Wesleyan has historically had a very strong science program as compared to other SLACs, and still does. That is because it is larger than other SLACs, grants PhDs in the sciences, and has excellent science facilities, giving undergraduate science majors many more opportunities than are available at the smaller LACs.

It provides great support for kids who want to get MDs or PhDs. At one point in my department in a top 3 medical school we had a senior faculty member, a junior faculty member (me), and 2 residents who had graduated from Wes.

I’ve rarely meet faculty members or trainees (resident or fellow) from other SLACs, but Wes alumni of all ages are all over the place in medicine.

If you aren’t in science or medicine then you might not be aware, but this is truly a “standout area” for Wesleyan.

This is where my ?s form. Wes isn’t a top 20 grad feeder for any of the sciences, and I was being generous and tried to include CS, Psych, and Math just in case I missed something. It isn’t even in the top 40 for almost any of those. It also isn’t unique in its premed matriculation- all of WASP and most top 20 LACs have a better med school acceptance rate with a very similar amount of students applying to med school (Wesleyan is around 50 applicants per year, and most WASP schools are a similar number, Amherst has a higher applicant total and acceptance rate).

Lastly, I work in the sciences. I’ve been to various national conferences and do work in Optics. Wesleyan grads are nowhere interesting to be found or anywhere more common than other grads. I’ve frankly met way more people from Williams, Pomona, and Mudd than the 2-3 Wesleyan grads I can recall.

I’m more convinced that Wesleyan had a bit of an overstated reputation due to its “Little Three” affiliation and hasn’t really found its bearing in a program or outcome that’s unique. Reminds me a lot of Haverford, which has a similar history of being compared to the top lacs (it was seen in a similar light to how swarthmore is today) but hasn’t rediscovered or realigned its strengths with the times.

+10, Wesleyan has not been a household slam dunk WASP peer for decades. It really isn’t much different to Hamilton now, may be worse.

A lot of people who do the hiring are, however, older, and running at least 10-20 years behind the current trends. We also don’t obsess over fine gradations in SLAC rankings (until our kids apply to college).

I went to Wes, so I always take a second look at alumni applications. My spouse - who did not got to Wes, but says he thinks I’m smart - has hired 2 Wes grads in the last 10 years, and both have been fantastic.

So we know that if we hire a wes alum then there’s a good chance that we can get a smart and hard-working individual who is curious about the world and can write coherently.

However, I think the same about most SLAC grads! Although, oddly, I am not very familiar with Hamilton, and may not have even clocked it as a SLAC until our kids started thinking about college.

In summary, not that long ago Wesleyan far better known than Hamilton, and both hiring managers and grad/prof school selection committees skew old, so - fairly or unfairly - Wes might still provide an edge in thar respect.

Don’t you maybe think you have this perspective, because you’re an alum? I’m in a highly competitive industry, and if I see a Wesleyan student, I’m not taking them as seriously as I will a WASP/CMC/Middlebury alum.

I've heard references to SWAMP rather than WASP reflecting Middleburys increasing strength particularly in Finance.

Midd is a great school, but I'm convinced that SWAMP has more to do with acronymic novelty than Midd's relationship to Carleton, Bowdoin, CMC, and Wellesley, etc.

Could be, they are all great schools and none of them are appreciably weaker than the WASP schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here

Out of curiosity, I looked up the US News rankings. Hamilton and Wesleyan were both ranked 14. Middlebury was ranked 19 which seems off though.

Yes, you are correct that this spirited debate about two schools that appeal to many of the same types of kids and that are more similar than different is pretty silly. Partisan disputes are never pretty. Also love that in a thread ostensibly about Hamilton v. Wesleyan (which in retrospect has got to be a Lin Manuel Miranda bit), someone can't help but invoke the more "prestigious" SLACs to make sure they know their place, though maybe Middlebury doesn't count this year because they dropped to 19. Let's keep fighting about it though. I sure need Middlebury Mom to remind me again that they're almost as good as the WASPs if we would only just understand. Let's see if we can keep this thread cranking until RD later this spring!

I don't need you to remind you because you already know it but don't want to admit it because you DC was shut out of all of them and now attends Wes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Used to be called little Yale or little Ivy back in the day.

Got a lot of interest recently for theater crowd because that is where Lin Manuel-Miranda went and where he staged an earlier version of the Heights I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hmm ... the school founded by Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton) vs. the school that educated the creator of the Hamilton musical juggernaut (Wesleyan)???

Might be another Aaron Burr v. A. Ham level match up ...

I'll play. I preferred Wes' campus to Hamilton and so did my kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Wesleyan has historically had a very strong science program as compared to other SLACs, and still does. That is because it is larger than other SLACs, grants PhDs in the sciences, and has excellent science facilities, giving undergraduate science majors many more opportunities than are available at the smaller LACs.

It provides great support for kids who want to get MDs or PhDs. At one point in my department in a top 3 medical school we had a senior faculty member, a junior faculty member (me), and 2 residents who had graduated from Wes.

I’ve rarely meet faculty members or trainees (resident or fellow) from other SLACs, but Wes alumni of all ages are all over the place in medicine.

If you aren’t in science or medicine then you might not be aware, but this is truly a “standout area” for Wesleyan.

This is where my ?s form. Wes isn’t a top 20 grad feeder for any of the sciences, and I was being generous and tried to include CS, Psych, and Math just in case I missed something. It isn’t even in the top 40 for almost any of those. It also isn’t unique in its premed matriculation- all of WASP and most top 20 LACs have a better med school acceptance rate with a very similar amount of students applying to med school (Wesleyan is around 50 applicants per year, and most WASP schools are a similar number, Amherst has a higher applicant total and acceptance rate).

Lastly, I work in the sciences. I’ve been to various national conferences and do work in Optics. Wesleyan grads are nowhere interesting to be found or anywhere more common than other grads. I’ve frankly met way more people from Williams, Pomona, and Mudd than the 2-3 Wesleyan grads I can recall.

I’m more convinced that Wesleyan had a bit of an overstated reputation due to its “Little Three” affiliation and hasn’t really found its bearing in a program or outcome that’s unique. Reminds me a lot of Haverford, which has a similar history of being compared to the top lacs (it was seen in a similar light to how swarthmore is today) but hasn’t rediscovered or realigned its strengths with the times.

+10, Wesleyan has not been a household slam dunk WASP peer for decades. It really isn’t much different to Hamilton now, may be worse.

A lot of people who do the hiring are, however, older, and running at least 10-20 years behind the current trends. We also don’t obsess over fine gradations in SLAC rankings (until our kids apply to college).

I went to Wes, so I always take a second look at alumni applications. My spouse - who did not got to Wes, but says he thinks I’m smart - has hired 2 Wes grads in the last 10 years, and both have been fantastic.

So we know that if we hire a wes alum then there’s a good chance that we can get a smart and hard-working individual who is curious about the world and can write coherently.

However, I think the same about most SLAC grads! Although, oddly, I am not very familiar with Hamilton, and may not have even clocked it as a SLAC until our kids started thinking about college.

In summary, not that long ago Wesleyan far better known than Hamilton, and both hiring managers and grad/prof school selection committees skew old, so - fairly or unfairly - Wes might still provide an edge in thar respect.

Don’t you maybe think you have this perspective, because you’re an alum? I’m in a highly competitive industry, and if I see a Wesleyan student, I’m not taking them as seriously as I will a WASP/CMC/Middlebury alum.

I've heard references to SWAMP rather than WASP reflecting Middleburys increasing strength particularly in Finance.

Midd is a great school, but I'm convinced that SWAMP has more to do with acronymic novelty than Midd's relationship to Carleton, Bowdoin, CMC, and Wellesley, etc.

Could be, they are all great schools and none of them are appreciably weaker than the WASP schools.

We're talking about different things unless you think the acronym "SWAMP" exists because Midd, Carleton, Bowdoin, CMC, and Wellesley are not "appreciably weaker than the WASP schools," which makes no sense. I don't give a shit about the underlying notions of rankings, prestige, and hierarchy inherent in groupings like WASP and HYPSM. I'm just curious about the etymology of SWAMP and why, if WASP is going to be expanded, it isn't, say, WWASP given that Wellesley* has a slightly higher USNWR historical ranking than the other schools mentioned. I maintain that it's simply because SWAMP is a better acronym.

*Side note: Wellesley never gets much love on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Wesleyan has historically had a very strong science program as compared to other SLACs, and still does. That is because it is larger than other SLACs, grants PhDs in the sciences, and has excellent science facilities, giving undergraduate science majors many more opportunities than are available at the smaller LACs.

It provides great support for kids who want to get MDs or PhDs. At one point in my department in a top 3 medical school we had a senior faculty member, a junior faculty member (me), and 2 residents who had graduated from Wes.

I’ve rarely meet faculty members or trainees (resident or fellow) from other SLACs, but Wes alumni of all ages are all over the place in medicine.

If you aren’t in science or medicine then you might not be aware, but this is truly a “standout area” for Wesleyan.

This is where my ?s form. Wes isn’t a top 20 grad feeder for any of the sciences, and I was being generous and tried to include CS, Psych, and Math just in case I missed something. It isn’t even in the top 40 for almost any of those. It also isn’t unique in its premed matriculation- all of WASP and most top 20 LACs have a better med school acceptance rate with a very similar amount of students applying to med school (Wesleyan is around 50 applicants per year, and most WASP schools are a similar number, Amherst has a higher applicant total and acceptance rate).

Lastly, I work in the sciences. I’ve been to various national conferences and do work in Optics. Wesleyan grads are nowhere interesting to be found or anywhere more common than other grads. I’ve frankly met way more people from Williams, Pomona, and Mudd than the 2-3 Wesleyan grads I can recall.

I’m more convinced that Wesleyan had a bit of an overstated reputation due to its “Little Three” affiliation and hasn’t really found its bearing in a program or outcome that’s unique. Reminds me a lot of Haverford, which has a similar history of being compared to the top lacs (it was seen in a similar light to how swarthmore is today) but hasn’t rediscovered or realigned its strengths with the times.

+10, Wesleyan has not been a household slam dunk WASP peer for decades. It really isn’t much different to Hamilton now, may be worse.

A lot of people who do the hiring are, however, older, and running at least 10-20 years behind the current trends. We also don’t obsess over fine gradations in SLAC rankings (until our kids apply to college).

I went to Wes, so I always take a second look at alumni applications. My spouse - who did not got to Wes, but says he thinks I’m smart - has hired 2 Wes grads in the last 10 years, and both have been fantastic.

So we know that if we hire a wes alum then there’s a good chance that we can get a smart and hard-working individual who is curious about the world and can write coherently.

However, I think the same about most SLAC grads! Although, oddly, I am not very familiar with Hamilton, and may not have even clocked it as a SLAC until our kids started thinking about college.

In summary, not that long ago Wesleyan far better known than Hamilton, and both hiring managers and grad/prof school selection committees skew old, so - fairly or unfairly - Wes might still provide an edge in thar respect.

Don’t you maybe think you have this perspective, because you’re an alum? I’m in a highly competitive industry, and if I see a Wesleyan student, I’m not taking them as seriously as I will a WASP/CMC/Middlebury alum.

I've heard references to SWAMP rather than WASP reflecting Middleburys increasing strength particularly in Finance.

Midd is a great school, but I'm convinced that SWAMP has more to do with acronymic novelty than Midd's relationship to Carleton, Bowdoin, CMC, and Wellesley, etc.

Could be, they are all great schools and none of them are appreciably weaker than the WASP schools.

We're talking about different things unless you think the acronym "SWAMP" exists because Midd, Carleton, Bowdoin, CMC, and Wellesley are not "appreciably weaker than the WASP schools," which makes no sense. I don't give a shit about the underlying notions of rankings, prestige, and hierarchy inherent in groupings like WASP and HYPSM. I'm just curious about the etymology of SWAMP and why, if WASP is going to be expanded, it isn't, say, WWASP given that Wellesley* has a slightly higher USNWR historical ranking than the other schools mentioned. I maintain that it's simply because SWAMP is a better acronym.

*Side note: Wellesley never gets much love on DCUM.

Got it. SWAMP is the superior acronym. I suspect that Midd alum like it as well. And, Wellesley is always underappreciated.

The schools are pretty much the same unless you want to go into finance where Williams and CMC have always had an advantage and Midd seems to be gaining one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm ... the school founded by Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton) vs. the school that educated the creator of the Hamilton musical juggernaut (Wesleyan)???

Might be another Aaron Burr v. A. Ham level match up ...

I'll play. I preferred Wes' campus to Hamilton and so did my kid.

My kid loved Hamilton but said 'we're done' 30 minutes into their Wes visit. Didn't end up at either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm ... the school founded by Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton) vs. the school that educated the creator of the Hamilton musical juggernaut (Wesleyan)???

Might be another Aaron Burr v. A. Ham level match up ...

I'll play. I preferred Wes' campus to Hamilton and so did my kid.

My kid loved Hamilton but said 'we're done' 30 minutes into their Wes visit. Didn't end up at either.

Where did they end up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here

Out of curiosity, I looked up the US News rankings. Hamilton and Wesleyan were both ranked 14. Middlebury was ranked 19 which seems off though.

Yes, you are correct that this spirited debate about two schools that appeal to many of the same types of kids and that are more similar than different is pretty silly. Partisan disputes are never pretty. Also love that in a thread ostensibly about Hamilton v. Wesleyan (which in retrospect has got to be a Lin Manuel Miranda bit), someone can't help but invoke the more "prestigious" SLACs to make sure they know their place, though maybe Middlebury doesn't count this year because they dropped to 19. Let's keep fighting about it though. I sure need Middlebury Mom to remind me again that they're almost as good as the WASPs if we would only just understand. Let's see if we can keep this thread cranking until RD later this spring!

I don't need you to remind you because you already know it but don't want to admit it because you DC was shut out of all of them and now attends Wes.

Guess I touched a nerve, Middlebury Mom. You know you're getting somewhere when someone tries to drag you for your kid "not getting in." Sorta like this board's equivalent of invoking Hitler in an argument. Classy. Anyway, since you assumed incorrectly, none of these things are actually true for me. My DC isn't even in college yet! And while Middlebury is a great school, like all the others discussed in this thread, it isn't on my DC's list for fit reasons (though Hamilton and Wes are, along with others discussed). This feeds into my original point that arguments about which of these schools are CLEARLY, objectively better than others are not really productive. But by all means, please make these assertions informed by notions of perceived prestige or what US News or Poets and Quants has to say about it. My spouse is an Amherst grad and they were amused to hear how many strays their alma mater caught on this board this past admission cycle. If there's going to be beef on this board about an Amherst education, I guess I shouldn't be shocked by the notion that a school like Wesleyan is washed up and clearly inferior to Hamilton. But let's keep this discussion going!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm ... the school founded by Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton) vs. the school that educated the creator of the Hamilton musical juggernaut (Wesleyan)???

Might be another Aaron Burr v. A. Ham level match up ...

One is impressive, the other is cringey and constantly talked about on tours, because there’s nothing interesting or attractive about the school.

Hamilton alum again.

Although I agree with your sentiment about the college namesake, I definitely would take Lin-Manuel over Hamilton's foremost literary light, Ezra Pound.

Really why? Pound might be cancelled for his trash political views, but he’s undeniable essential to literature and actually inspired a wave of Jewish modernists who wrote in the Poundian tradition. That’s like a school disliking Einstein for his treatment of women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Wesleyan has historically had a very strong science program as compared to other SLACs, and still does. That is because it is larger than other SLACs, grants PhDs in the sciences, and has excellent science facilities, giving undergraduate science majors many more opportunities than are available at the smaller LACs.

It provides great support for kids who want to get MDs or PhDs. At one point in my department in a top 3 medical school we had a senior faculty member, a junior faculty member (me), and 2 residents who had graduated from Wes.

I’ve rarely meet faculty members or trainees (resident or fellow) from other SLACs, but Wes alumni of all ages are all over the place in medicine.

If you aren’t in science or medicine then you might not be aware, but this is truly a “standout area” for Wesleyan.

This is where my ?s form. Wes isn’t a top 20 grad feeder for any of the sciences, and I was being generous and tried to include CS, Psych, and Math just in case I missed something. It isn’t even in the top 40 for almost any of those. It also isn’t unique in its premed matriculation- all of WASP and most top 20 LACs have a better med school acceptance rate with a very similar amount of students applying to med school (Wesleyan is around 50 applicants per year, and most WASP schools are a similar number, Amherst has a higher applicant total and acceptance rate).

Lastly, I work in the sciences. I’ve been to various national conferences and do work in Optics. Wesleyan grads are nowhere interesting to be found or anywhere more common than other grads. I’ve frankly met way more people from Williams, Pomona, and Mudd than the 2-3 Wesleyan grads I can recall.

I’m more convinced that Wesleyan had a bit of an overstated reputation due to its “Little Three” affiliation and hasn’t really found its bearing in a program or outcome that’s unique. Reminds me a lot of Haverford, which has a similar history of being compared to the top lacs (it was seen in a similar light to how swarthmore is today) but hasn’t rediscovered or realigned its strengths with the times.

+10, Wesleyan has not been a household slam dunk WASP peer for decades. It really isn’t much different to Hamilton now, may be worse.

A lot of people who do the hiring are, however, older, and running at least 10-20 years behind the current trends. We also don’t obsess over fine gradations in SLAC rankings (until our kids apply to college).

I went to Wes, so I always take a second look at alumni applications. My spouse - who did not got to Wes, but says he thinks I’m smart - has hired 2 Wes grads in the last 10 years, and both have been fantastic.

So we know that if we hire a wes alum then there’s a good chance that we can get a smart and hard-working individual who is curious about the world and can write coherently.

However, I think the same about most SLAC grads! Although, oddly, I am not very familiar with Hamilton, and may not have even clocked it as a SLAC until our kids started thinking about college.

In summary, not that long ago Wesleyan far better known than Hamilton, and both hiring managers and grad/prof school selection committees skew old, so - fairly or unfairly - Wes might still provide an edge in thar respect.

Don’t you maybe think you have this perspective, because you’re an alum? I’m in a highly competitive industry, and if I see a Wesleyan student, I’m not taking them as seriously as I will a WASP/CMC/Middlebury alum.

I've heard references to SWAMP rather than WASP reflecting Middleburys increasing strength particularly in Finance.

Middlebury is not at that level yet. Half of WASP isn’t even known for finance, it’s about historic legacy, grad school admission, and unique undergraduate offerings at the elite level.

Middlebury was T5 in LACs for decades until they started adding nonsense like FGLI et al to the USNWR rankings. Middlebury was also slow about aggressively expanding their endowmentthough hopefully that will cahnge with Patton out the door.

Sure and so is and was Bowdoin. Many schools have touched t5. Frankly, the only lac that should be added to WASP is Wellesley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Used to be called little Yale or little Ivy back in the day.

Got a lot of interest recently for theater crowd because that is where Lin Manuel-Miranda went and where he staged an earlier version of the Heights I think.

None of that is academic programs. Yale has the best law school in the country and is elite across the humanities; its history department is the best in the nation. What does Wesleyan have?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Used to be called little Yale or little Ivy back in the day.

Got a lot of interest recently for theater crowd because that is where Lin Manuel-Miranda went and where he staged an earlier version of the Heights I think.

None of that is academic programs. Yale has the best law school in the country and is elite across the humanities; its history department is the best in the nation. What does Wesleyan have?

Michael Roth, Probably the best President in all of the Ivy/NESCAC collection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm ... the school founded by Alexander Hamilton (Hamilton) vs. the school that educated the creator of the Hamilton musical juggernaut (Wesleyan)???

Might be another Aaron Burr v. A. Ham level match up ...

I'll play. I preferred Wes' campus to Hamilton and so did my kid.

My kid loved Hamilton but said 'we're done' 30 minutes into their Wes visit. Didn't end up at either.

Where did they end up?

Bowdoin

I like Wes, it was a "feel" thing. Kids are weird; they ruled out Holy Cross because they didn't like the name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what’s with the historic eliteness to Wesleyan? There’s not a single standout program there that clarifies to me why everyone is riding on its past prestige? Every other top LAC has easily identifiable academic programs that make them well known, but Wesleyan just…doesn’t?

Used to be called little Yale or little Ivy back in the day.

Got a lot of interest recently for theater crowd because that is where Lin Manuel-Miranda went and where he staged an earlier version of the Heights I think.

None of that is academic programs. Yale has the best law school in the country and is elite across the humanities; its history department is the best in the nation. What does Wesleyan have?

Michael Roth, Probably the best President in all of the Ivy/NESCAC collection.

… is Michael Roth starting an academic program or…? Id also argue Maud Mandel and Alan Gerber are better university presidents.