Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

1000% agree, and I'm a teacher. Its a nice theory, but the reality is far from what was imagined. As PP's have said, there are plenty of kids with relatively minor issues for whom inclusion is great. Kids who need additional reading support, preferential seating or need executive function help/repeated instructions from an aide. All of this is fine and does (for the most part) work for kids who are not disruptive. But I just won't do the disruptive kids any more. My principal knows this and is fine with it - instead I take the EL inclusion class which is much much easier to handle. They too get an additional teacher, but we aren't dealing with the behavioral issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The worst are parents with badly behaved kids who either don't give a F or are in complete and total denial they gave birth to Satan baby, and instead promote their child as a "highly gifted" angel. puke

My friend has a “special needs” kid with ADHD. This kid has tried to choke another boy on a bus with a seat belt, stab a girl with scissors, he has shoved little kids down stairs, threw heavy things at people, regularly has meltdowns and tantrums.

He has been kicked out of all after school programs, but the public school can’t kick him out.

Yet, according to her after every incident it’s the school’s fault for not helping him manage his feelings. She is mad when he gets punished by school for singling him out.

and there it is - the kid's true disability is the poor (lack of?) parenting he receives

100% correct

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

Teacher here. Perhaps but doesn't matter to me either way. The teacher that has to put up with the sped inclusion kids gets paid the same as I do. Less actually, because I have a higher degree and a higher pay step (more seniority.) My job is infinitely easier than hers. They don't pay the sped teachers extra, shockingly. Hard pass - figuring out why a 10 year old is tantruming or eloping (again) is not my job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

Schools do NOT do what you suggest above. The legal requirement is to access the curriculum. Parents are responsible for the medical / case management side of this. It all parents are able to access services. In those cases it can be due to finances or (more often) a lack of providers in general. Wait lists are 9-18 months long for providers that take insurance. I happen to pay out of pocket because we can afford to, and I don’t want to wait for things my kid needs now.

[Anonymous]

The problem is central office won't allow a child to be removed. Even if you have tons of data. Ask me how I know

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I volunteered in my child’s first grade class six years ago at a school that sounds identical to OP’s. There were 29 kids in the class, essentially a full time aide for the kids with diagnosed challenges, and it was STILL an unbelievably hot mess.

Kid throwing furniture, spitting all over the class, screaming, trying to leave, just general chaotic, disruptive behavior. The class was across the hall from the room that was designated for kids who have outbursts, and it was a nonstop revolving door of out-of-control kids from all over the school being dragged down the hall to that classroom.

We left after that year, went to private. Never intended to not go to our neighborhood FCPS school, but what a disaster.

Dollars to donuts an administrator was out there criticizing her "classroom management" also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

I'm not a parent. I'm a school admin. Moving you to somewhere you give me less stress is way cheaper and less time consuming than trying to find a replacement. I'm glad that it works well for you also!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet.

OP, I grew up in an affluent suburb and attended a top public school. When I got my first job teaching, I was really shocked, and I blamed the parents and the culture instead of societal ills like poverty and racism. But I was wrong, and the problem was my lack of real world experience.

Why would it be shocking that public schools enroll everyone? Why is a lower-maintenance kid more valuable than one with extra needs? Be careful not to adultify children . . . they may be saying bad words, but they are 7 years old. They're just playing at being cool; they're not actually little gangsters. I remember seeing movies like Dirty Dancing and Pretty Woman when I was a kid; I totally didn't pick up on things like abortion and condoms.

Your post brings up some important questions. Who are we as a society? What does a public good really mean, and who is it for? What does it look like to meet people, especially children, where they are? What supports do our teachers need?

I send my kids to public schools, and not even "good" ones. I don't want them to be like me, shocked and uncomfortable when encountering the real world.

If you think you need to send your 6 year old needs to be hit by a flying chair in order to understand the real world, I think you still have a lot of learning to do. Good luck to your children.

OP here. I did not grow up in a wealthy area. I’ve lived in all kinds of places as my parents moved for work - almost rural to urban, poor to wealthy. I would not say I’ve been sheltered up to the point I began working in this school. I’ve also worked extensively with the homeless and with urban youth from all different backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

See, sweetheart, a teacher replied to this too — do you think they also misunderstand ‘inclusion’?

My smart, sensitive, social 3rd grader attends an excellent large public, with great teachers, and we see some of this, too. We have plenty of kids with in-denial parents who can’t accept that their angels make death threats or attack kids in the bathroom. Kids who pull this crap - I would say publicly I don’t give a good goddamned thing about WHAT causes the kind of behavior that traumatizes other humans. I DON’T. There are over 2 dozen children in every classroom with one unmanageable child! So many of these posts just insist that THEIR education is secondary to the fits and the violence and IT ISN’T. I will never ever stop confronting this detestable entitlement because THAT is what it is of parents (here obviously on this damned thread) and their apologists (ditto). We can and should confront what inclusion and access mean for everyone in a population FGS.

Sweetheart?

I’m sure her principal knows that that particular teacher’s abilities are limited. No teacher worth their salt acts like that.

+1 lol at this teacher. Couldn't handle a challenging class so their principal moved them into something more their speed.

Why should I do more work for the same money and loads of IEP meetings with parents like you? Only an idiot would take that deal. At our school, sped inclusion is all junior teachers.

I'm not a parent. I'm a school admin. Moving you to somewhere you give me less stress is way cheaper and less time consuming than trying to find a replacement. I'm glad that it works well for you also!

Yep, you'll need to focus all of your energy on replacing the classroom teachers that our school churns through due to sped. There isn't enough money in the world for me to do your job!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

They can start by getting all the disruptive kids out of our classrooms and back into special facilities that are equipped (no scissors, yes metal detectors, yes guards) and trained (staff with personal defense training plus deescalation techniques etc plus aides floating around) to handle them.

The problem is the students and the parents. Not the schools. Schools don’t need more money or more anything. They need less of the thing that’s destroying them, which is disruptive students.

They need more teachers. And less secretaries, "coaches," administrators, and layers upon layers of useless paper-pushers.

We need less IEPs that REQUIRE classroom teachers to spend HOURS per week documenting.

I'm not sure what district and school you are in, but when I was teaching in Fairfax classroom teachers did not spend hours documenting for IEPs. The special ed teachers did most of that.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

Op here. I do believe in inclusion! But not to this degree. We have kids with severe issues and in many cases they are not getting what they need by being mainstreamed even with an aide. And they are severely disrupting the education of 20-24 of their peers. An example from this week is a severely autistic child was having a screaming outburst and a permanent aide and main classroom teacher were sitting with him, and asking him around, talking and giving him choices, asking if he needed to go out for a walk… Meanwhile 23 kids don’t have a teacher and have missed much of their literacy time. In this case perhaps the kid should be mainstreamed with an aide (I don’t know all the details of his IEP), but during prolonged outbursts I think the aide and student should leave the classroom.

In your example of a kid biting… I mean, realistically at the elementary age kids do sometimes bite and kick and hit. I do think consequences should exist and the incidents should be written up, but suspending a 5 year old for biting a classmate doesn’t seem realistic.