Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

+1
IDEA and FAPE are nice concepts but until the feds actually fund these programs as they need to be they are breaking schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No child left behind REALLY screwed so many kids. It hasn't helped kids avoid being academically left behind. And "least restrictive environment" isn't helpful when the kid is verbally disruptive.

+1 Very rarely will non-teachers admit this. But NCLB/IDEA/FAPE ruined public schools in the US. The Federal Government and Congress like the publicity of “helping everyone” but provided no funding. So then all children suffer.

+1
IDEA and FAPE are nice concepts but until the feds actually fund these programs as they need to be they are breaking schools.

This. It could work with proper funding. There is not proper funding and it's not working. There's at least one student at our ES who is causing their classroom to be evacuated on a weekly basis, sometimes twice a week. The kids are out of the room for about 20 minutes each time it happens. That's 100 minutes of missed instruction per month for every kid in the class, including the other non disruptive classmates who have IEPs and are also legally entitled to FAPE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PPs who want lots of special services or separate schools for disruptive kids who aren't diagnosed are being totally unrealistic. Educators know that a kid taken out of mainstream will have a worse outcome, so taking an action like that, if it were even possible, has serious consequences, and educators care about every kid.

It takes many years to ascertain what a kid's problems are. An evaluation requires that teachers/parents all agree and have decided to take an action for a child who is learning disabled, ADD, traumatized, or all of those, and after that, you want to see if improvements happen following interventions, and all of that takes time. Years.

You want to say that a 1st grader who threw a chair should be condemned immediately? That is not happening. Nor should it. How many infractions before a little child is sent out of mainstream? Seriously, who are you to judge how it should go?

If you want lots more money spent on special services in schools, you're going to need to be an activist for that, and vote that way. The kids at school reflect the community you live in. You want to make it better as a whole.

Yes and that process of years long seeing if mainstream works for a kid works FOR THAT ONE KID. But in the meantime dozens of other kids need to endure chairs flying around and their classes being regularly disrupted. That’s not acceptable and is why eithe the law or the process for dealing with those deeply troubled kids needs changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PPs who want lots of special services or separate schools for disruptive kids who aren't diagnosed are being totally unrealistic. Educators know that a kid taken out of mainstream will have a worse outcome, so taking an action like that, if it were even possible, has serious consequences, and educators care about every kid.

It takes many years to ascertain what a kid's problems are. An evaluation requires that teachers/parents all agree and have decided to take an action for a child who is learning disabled, ADD, traumatized, or all of those, and after that, you want to see if improvements happen following interventions, and all of that takes time. Years.

You want to say that a 1st grader who threw a chair should be condemned immediately? That is not happening. Nor should it. How many infractions before a little child is sent out of mainstream? Seriously, who are you to judge how it should go?

If you want lots more money spent on special services in schools, you're going to need to be an activist for that, and vote that way. The kids at school reflect the community you live in. You want to make it better as a whole.

What if your first grader got hit in the head with a chair thrown by another kid who habitually threw chairs? How would you feel? You really don't think that kid should be separated so they can't harm others? I don't believe that. Everyone wants their kids to be safe.

[Anonymous]

That’s why people go to privates. You will never see scenes like these in our private. It’s not tolerated.

DD went to elementary in a public school and that’s why we switched to private.

In public DD was completely invisible because she was normal. All the attention was spent on behavior issues. It was the center focus of elementary school. Not learning, but standing on the right tile in the hallway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet.

OP, I grew up in an affluent suburb and attended a top public school. When I got my first job teaching, I was really shocked, and I blamed the parents and the culture instead of societal ills like poverty and racism. But I was wrong, and the problem was my lack of real world experience.

Why would it be shocking that public schools enroll everyone? Why is a lower-maintenance kid more valuable than one with extra needs? Be careful not to adultify children . . . they may be saying bad words, but they are 7 years old. They're just playing at being cool; they're not actually little gangsters. I remember seeing movies like Dirty Dancing and Pretty Woman when I was a kid; I totally didn't pick up on things like abortion and condoms.

Your post brings up some important questions. Who are we as a society? What does a public good really mean, and who is it for? What does it look like to meet people, especially children, where they are? What supports do our teachers need?

I send my kids to public schools, and not even "good" ones. I don't want them to be like me, shocked and uncomfortable when encountering the real world.

If you think you need to send your 6 year old needs to be hit by a flying chair in order to understand the real world, I think you still have a lot of learning to do. Good luck to your children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The worst are parents with badly behaved kids who either don't give a F or are in complete and total denial they gave birth to Satan baby, and instead promote their child as a "highly gifted" angel. puke

My friend has a “special needs” kid with ADHD. This kid has tried to choke another boy on a bus with a seat belt, stab a girl with scissors, he has shoved little kids down stairs, threw heavy things at people, regularly has meltdowns and tantrums.

He has been kicked out of all after school programs, but the public school can’t kick him out.

Yet, according to her after every incident it’s the school’s fault for not helping him manage his feelings. She is mad when he gets punished by school for singling him out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PPs who want lots of special services or separate schools for disruptive kids who aren't diagnosed are being totally unrealistic. Educators know that a kid taken out of mainstream will have a worse outcome, so taking an action like that, if it were even possible, has serious consequences, and educators care about every kid.

It takes many years to ascertain what a kid's problems are. An evaluation requires that teachers/parents all agree and have decided to take an action for a child who is learning disabled, ADD, traumatized, or all of those, and after that, you want to see if improvements happen following interventions, and all of that takes time. Years.

You want to say that a 1st grader who threw a chair should be condemned immediately? That is not happening. Nor should it. How many infractions before a little child is sent out of mainstream? Seriously, who are you to judge how it should go?

If you want lots more money spent on special services in schools, you're going to need to be an activist for that, and vote that way. The kids at school reflect the community you live in. You want to make it better as a whole.

Yes and that process of years long seeing if mainstream works for a kid works FOR THAT ONE KID. But in the meantime dozens of other kids need to endure chairs flying around and their classes being regularly disrupted. That’s not acceptable and is why eithe the law or the process for dealing with those deeply troubled kids needs changed.

I’m going to be honest I do not care about the violent chair throwing kid. Get them out of the classroom and put them who cares? I care about the regular kids who are victims of this violence.

[Anonymous]

How can we change federal law though. Until these inclusion/ FAPE laws change, our kids are basically at the mercy of these out of control children. Unless we move our kids to private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

It’s really gross that some posters keep trying to insist that having violent or highly verbally disruptive kids in the classroom is the same thing as having a child in a wheel chair sitting there or good forbid a black child (?!!) in the classroom. There’s something really wrong with you if you honestly think that.

The distinction is clear - when the teacher has to literally stop classes to reprimand someone, try to keep them on task, chase them because they ran outside, evacuate all tye other kids in the classroom because a child is screaming or destroying things. Those kids clearly do not belong in the classroom. Kids who stop the teachers from teaching do not belong in the classroom. They are the kids we’re talking about.

YES. And god forbid you say it out loud, you will be shamed. This came up recently in a mom group and the mom posted about her daughter's learning being interrupted constantly because of chair throwing and constant evacuations. She was bullied so hard on her post... everything was "well think about the poor kid that's throwing chairs and injuring others" and "this is the most ableist post ever". She was literally shredded. I felt bad for her. What about her kid? Doesn't she deserve to learn free from fear of getting whacked in the head with a flying object? What about the other 20 kids that deserve that as well?

We went through this last year in 1st grade and it was wild. I emailed and called the principal when I found out how frequently my DD's classroom was getting evacuated. Sometimes multiple times a day. Those kids were not learning and whatever they were doing to try to keep the behavior kid calmed down was not working and I demanded more. The response was that they couldn't or wouldn't. So it was an absolute dumpster fire of a year. And guess what? My DD's teacher quit teaching after that year. We wonder why there's a teacher shortage. I wouldn't put up with the BS either.

More than that, they were in all likelihood traumatized.

CPS would probably get involved if there was a lot of dangerous chair throwing in a child’s home. Why not at school?

PP you are quoting ... sadly, my daughter was numb to it by the time I found out about (it had been happening for months). She was just very matter of fact saying "when Larla can't handle her feelings, sometimes she throws things and we need to get out of the way to stay safe." It was so sad to hear the way she spoke about it.

I really thought because there was physical violence involved, not just verbal outbursts, they could so SOMETHING. Nope. Just waiting for a kid or teacher to get hurt. Luckily none did that I know of. Then this year, a 5th grader attacked a teacher and they locked down the entire school over it, like Code Red, not a drill style. My 7 year old had to run into a supply closet because it was an active shooter for all they knew. So all the parents hear about it, some parents were there volunteering and a couple sub there too and the rest of us all fine out from a flurry of texts. HOURS later, we get an email about the incident and it was a "medical incident". Total BS according to people that were actually present in the school. Infuriating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Informal AMA thread. I am already shocked and saddened by the state of public elementary. This is in a wealthy suburb. There’s is a free lunch contingent but test scores are excellent and if you watch morning drop off it’s a lot of luxury vehicles.

I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher. I’ve heard 7 year olds using language I’d feel guilty about even repeating! I’ve watched teacher be kicked and punched and slapped, again by 6 and 7 year olds! And the hot lunches shocked me. The other day I watched one kid eat the following for lunch: giant chocolate chip muffin, chocolate milk, sugary Dannon yogurt, low fat string cheese. This is a “balanced” meal provided by the school.

Maybe I am just out of touch, but I feel many typical parents would be surprised to hear what elementary school is like for their kids.

Op, what is your role in the school? Are you a qualified and licensed teacher? How did you address the behavior concerns that you had in your classroom? If you alerted the appropriate staff, what actions did they take?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m shocked at how we enroll and keep some kids who have academic and social needs we can’t possibly meet. Often a helper is assigned to one of these kids to try to keep the kid safe while 20 other 6 years old try to ignore yelling and crying and distraction to learn from their teacher.

Yeah. I don’t believe in “inclusion”. I don’t think it works for either party.

Also, I feel it was dumped on schools to manage mental health problems of students.

It should be outsourced to medical providers. Schools should not be involved in behavior therapy, anger management, ADHD management, etc. They can barely do the one job they’re supposed to do - educate.

If Larla bites a teacher, she needs to be suspended, not counseled.

You don't even understand what inclusion is. Why do people insist on vocalizing uneducated opinions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had this feeling too. I volunteered at a kindergarten party in my sons class. 30 kids one teacher one aid. The aid spent the entire time trying to get 3 kids under control. They were throwing chairs in the reading corner, tackling each other, yelling and screaming. I finally understood why when I had the parent teacher conference it seemed like the teacher had no clue who my average child was. He was lost in the noise, sometimes literally. It was heartbreaking. I don’t fault the teachers I fault government actors who have consistently fought to under support public education for the last 40 years and the push to mainstream all children which does not provide those most in need with environs conducive to their own healthy growth and learning and undermines the education of more average performers. It’s doing so much damage to our nation and children. I don’t know what can be done.

I know this is not the answer to the question you asked but my family decided to make our budget uncomfortably tight so that our kids can go to our parish elementary school. It is hard seeing neighbors do much needed updates on their homes when our house needs it as well (windows have freeze on the inside as well as the outside on the coldest mornings) but it is what it is. We feel fortunate to (barely) be able to pull of tuition but the school our kids attend has very few of the widespread issues I hear about in our public.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The worst are parents with badly behaved kids who either don't give a F or are in complete and total denial they gave birth to Satan baby, and instead promote their child as a "highly gifted" angel. puke

My friend has a “special needs” kid with ADHD. This kid has tried to choke another boy on a bus with a seat belt, stab a girl with scissors, he has shoved little kids down stairs, threw heavy things at people, regularly has meltdowns and tantrums.

He has been kicked out of all after school programs, but the public school can’t kick him out.

Yet, according to her after every incident it’s the school’s fault for not helping him manage his feelings. She is mad when he gets punished by school for singling him out.

and there it is - the kid's true disability is the poor (lack of?) parenting he receives