Thoughts on Dunbar?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So find the political capital to promote kids to appropriate remedial classes vs. on-grade level classes they can't handle. No brainer.

Exactly. Also more support at the elementary level, after school tutoring, summer intensive programs for these kids and make it mandatory.

If DCPS started the above from the beginning at the elementary level from 1st-5th, you would not have the overwhelming majority of kids going into middle school 3-4 grade levels behind. You also would not need as intense supportive services and it would be a significantly smaller number in middle school.

DCPS just fails these kids by passing them. It’s not the answer and why you have the stats you do at Dunbar and other DCPS high schools. You need supports above and need it early for kids so behind.

This is all magical thinking. I agree that it’s absurd that DCPS seems to ignore the crisis represented by the proficiency levels. But, again, not passing these kids (i.e. failing them, putting them in classes labeled “remedial”, or whatever) means more kids in jail or dead. High school kids being asked to sit through remedial math when they are 14 will opt to drop out.

The people responding to this thread with silly things like “then just add intensive support from pre-k on” seem to not realize that we live in a city with finite resources. If you’d like to suggest ideas, try to come up with something that might actually work on in the real world.

[Anonymous]

What worked in my comprehensive MS in NYC (part of the "real world" last time I checked) were academically tracked classes in core subjects. Classes were taught on 3 or 4 different levels for each subject.

By contrast, our in-boundary DCPS middle school, Stuart Hobson, lumps many 6th, 7th and 8th graders who work many grade levels apart into the very same science and social studies classes. The casualty of the arrangement in the DCPS program is majority in-boundary enrollment. Most in-boundary UMC parents seem to flee for charters after 4th grade. The result is that SH still enrolls more students from Wards 5, 7 and 8 than those from Ward 6.

You're still sure that academic tracking is a bad joke on poor minority kids at risk of dropping out of school? Why? Even SH has offered "advanced" ELA and math classes for more than a decade now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So find the political capital to promote kids to appropriate remedial classes vs. on-grade level classes they can't handle. No brainer.

Exactly. Also more support at the elementary level, after school tutoring, summer intensive programs for these kids and make it mandatory.

If DCPS started the above from the beginning at the elementary level from 1st-5th, you would not have the overwhelming majority of kids going into middle school 3-4 grade levels behind. You also would not need as intense supportive services and it would be a significantly smaller number in middle school.

DCPS just fails these kids by passing them. It’s not the answer and why you have the stats you do at Dunbar and other DCPS high schools. You need supports above and need it early for kids so behind.

This is all magical thinking. I agree that it’s absurd that DCPS seems to ignore the crisis represented by the proficiency levels. But, again, not passing these kids (i.e. failing them, putting them in classes labeled “remedial”, or whatever) means more kids in jail or dead. High school kids being asked to sit through remedial math when they are 14 will opt to drop out.

The people responding to this thread with silly things like “then just add intensive support from pre-k on” seem to not realize that we live in a city with finite resources. If you’d like to suggest ideas, try to come up with something that might actually work on in the real world.

DC has one of the highest allocation of money per kid in the country. Yet, absolutely nothing to show for it as kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level.

I suggest getting rid of at least 1/2 of the bloated central office and the remaining work on getting these teachers and aides for the support services into every title 1 elementary school. That would be a good start.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup. Imagine adding a differentiation program of some sort to some of the lower performing elementary schools and watch how quickly those schools attract higher SES families who don’t mind having their kids go to school with poorer kids but do mind their kids not receiving a quality education. Rather than fearing segregation, I think forms of strong differentiation will actually promote more integration.

It seems to be an article of faith that attracting new high SES kids to schools like Dunbar is a key outcome that that school should devote a lot of resources to. I don’t see this as an important goal at all. I’d like to see the school focus on better educating the kids who currently attend.

The problem is that probably 75 % of the Dunbar students should not even be in High school given how far they are behind. So is it a high school for kids who on a 6th grade level at best? there is no way the school can make up for that loss and social promotion each year.

I suggest you read the research on “social promotion.” Holding kids back has very much worse outcomes both for the kids held back and for others in their classes.

This is basic stuff to know before opining on education policy.

So what exactly is a high school gradaute going to do in life reading on a elem level, no writing skills or basic math? I know. They end up getting suckered into for profit online colleges or UDC with 100k in school debt and no viable college education or degree.

You should try to broaden your perspective.

Most Americans (62%) don’t graduate from college. My understanding is that for at risk, low income, way below grade level kids, the concern is more about keeping them alive and out of jail past 25 than “for profit colleges.” When these kids are held back, they drop out and end up in jail or dead.

So high school is just the jail alternative? If the kid don;t want to be there, are years behind what exactly makes you think they are showing up to class, or if they do, totally disruptive.

[Anonymous]

I believe the research that this is best practices. But Parents are smart to flee from sending their kids to schools where this is commonplace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So find the political capital to promote kids to appropriate remedial classes vs. on-grade level classes they can't handle. No brainer.

Exactly. Also more support at the elementary level, after school tutoring, summer intensive programs for these kids and make it mandatory.

If DCPS started the above from the beginning at the elementary level from 1st-5th, you would not have the overwhelming majority of kids going into middle school 3-4 grade levels behind. You also would not need as intense supportive services and it would be a significantly smaller number in middle school.

DCPS just fails these kids by passing them. It’s not the answer and why you have the stats you do at Dunbar and other DCPS high schools. You need supports above and need it early for kids so behind.

This is all magical thinking. I agree that it’s absurd that DCPS seems to ignore the crisis represented by the proficiency levels. But, again, not passing these kids (i.e. failing them, putting them in classes labeled “remedial”, or whatever) means more kids in jail or dead. High school kids being asked to sit through remedial math when they are 14 will opt to drop out.

The people responding to this thread with silly things like “then just add intensive support from pre-k on” seem to not realize that we live in a city with finite resources. If you’d like to suggest ideas, try to come up with something that might actually work on in the real world.

DC has one of the highest allocation of money per kid in the country. Yet, absolutely nothing to show for it as kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level.

I suggest getting rid of at least 1/2 of the bloated central office and the remaining work on getting these teachers and aides for the support services into every title 1 elementary school. That would be a good start.

Where does the data show kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level. I've seen data that shows students not at a 4 (proficient) or above on PARCC but not data that shows how far behind they are or what the average grade level is for graduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So find the political capital to promote kids to appropriate remedial classes vs. on-grade level classes they can't handle. No brainer.

Exactly. Also more support at the elementary level, after school tutoring, summer intensive programs for these kids and make it mandatory.

If DCPS started the above from the beginning at the elementary level from 1st-5th, you would not have the overwhelming majority of kids going into middle school 3-4 grade levels behind. You also would not need as intense supportive services and it would be a significantly smaller number in middle school.

DCPS just fails these kids by passing them. It’s not the answer and why you have the stats you do at Dunbar and other DCPS high schools. You need supports above and need it early for kids so behind.

This is all magical thinking. I agree that it’s absurd that DCPS seems to ignore the crisis represented by the proficiency levels. But, again, not passing these kids (i.e. failing them, putting them in classes labeled “remedial”, or whatever) means more kids in jail or dead. High school kids being asked to sit through remedial math when they are 14 will opt to drop out.

The people responding to this thread with silly things like “then just add intensive support from pre-k on” seem to not realize that we live in a city with finite resources. If you’d like to suggest ideas, try to come up with something that might actually work on in the real world.

DC has one of the highest allocation of money per kid in the country. Yet, absolutely nothing to show for it as kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level.

I suggest getting rid of at least 1/2 of the bloated central office and the remaining work on getting these teachers and aides for the support services into every title 1 elementary school. That would be a good start.

Where does the data show kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level. I've seen data that shows students not at a 4 (proficient) or above on PARCC but not data that shows how far behind they are or what the average grade level is for graduates.

I suggest you talk to some high school teachers at these poorly performing schools then. It will be a reality check. They know these kids should not graduate and pass but it’s a systemic problem in DCPS which they can’t change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup. Imagine adding a differentiation program of some sort to some of the lower performing elementary schools and watch how quickly those schools attract higher SES families who don’t mind having their kids go to school with poorer kids but do mind their kids not receiving a quality education. Rather than fearing segregation, I think forms of strong differentiation will actually promote more integration.

It seems to be an article of faith that attracting new high SES kids to schools like Dunbar is a key outcome that that school should devote a lot of resources to. I don’t see this as an important goal at all. I’d like to see the school focus on better educating the kids who currently attend.

The problem is that probably 75 % of the Dunbar students should not even be in High school given how far they are behind. So is it a high school for kids who on a 6th grade level at best? there is no way the school can make up for that loss and social promotion each year.

I suggest you read the research on “social promotion.” Holding kids back has very much worse outcomes both for the kids held back and for others in their classes.

This is basic stuff to know before opining on education policy.

So what exactly is a high school gradaute going to do in life reading on a elem level, no writing skills or basic math? I know. They end up getting suckered into for profit online colleges or UDC with 100k in school debt and no viable college education or degree.

You should try to broaden your perspective.

Most Americans (62%) don’t graduate from college. My understanding is that for at risk, low income, way below grade level kids, the concern is more about keeping them alive and out of jail past 25 than “for profit colleges.” When these kids are held back, they drop out and end up in jail or dead.

So high school is just the jail alternative? If the kid don;t want to be there, are years behind what exactly makes you think they are showing up to class, or if they do, totally disruptive.

Yes, high school is a jail alternative for some kids. Exactly. And they are probably not the most attentive students and their attendance is likely not great.

However, the research is clear that if we instead hold these kids back, then more will drop out completely and more will end up in jail or dead. This is pretty awful, but it’s true.

Also, as a PP pointed out, plenty of kids who are not “proficient” on PARCC tests are, in fact, functionally literate and numerate. Those kids can get jobs rather than going to college, just like most Americans (62%).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


So high school is just the jail alternative? If the kid don;t want to be there, are years behind what exactly makes you think they are showing up to class, or if they do, totally disruptive.


Yes, high school is a jail alternative for some kids. Exactly. And they are probably not the most attentive students and their attendance is likely not great.

However, the research is clear that if we instead hold these kids back, then more will drop out completely and more will end up in jail or dead. This is pretty awful, but it’s true.

Also, as a PP pointed out, plenty of kids who are not “proficient” on PARCC tests are, in fact, functionally literate and numerate. Those kids can get jobs rather than going to college, just like most Americans (62%).

The school system that is supposed the entirety of children in a city cannot be simply a "jail alternative." And if you keep the chronically truant, disruptive and inattentive in the classes with everybody else, then you will rapidly see the parents of every kid who doesn't fit into that category bolt for other alternatives as soon as they can obtain one. Which is exactly where we are with every gen-ed EOTP high school.

Downsize central office and redeploy the funds for more boots on the ground personnel; reinstitute tracking for core subjects while at same time striving to identify and encourage kids who CAN do upper level work to go for those classes; implement robust CTE so that kids who are not into writing academic papers have an option to graduate from high school with employable trade skills that will enable them to be firmly in the middle class.

[Anonymous]

"that is supposed to educate the entirety" . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So find the political capital to promote kids to appropriate remedial classes vs. on-grade level classes they can't handle. No brainer.

Exactly. Also more support at the elementary level, after school tutoring, summer intensive programs for these kids and make it mandatory.

If DCPS started the above from the beginning at the elementary level from 1st-5th, you would not have the overwhelming majority of kids going into middle school 3-4 grade levels behind. You also would not need as intense supportive services and it would be a significantly smaller number in middle school.

DCPS just fails these kids by passing them. It’s not the answer and why you have the stats you do at Dunbar and other DCPS high schools. You need supports above and need it early for kids so behind.

This is all magical thinking. I agree that it’s absurd that DCPS seems to ignore the crisis represented by the proficiency levels. But, again, not passing these kids (i.e. failing them, putting them in classes labeled “remedial”, or whatever) means more kids in jail or dead. High school kids being asked to sit through remedial math when they are 14 will opt to drop out.

The people responding to this thread with silly things like “then just add intensive support from pre-k on” seem to not realize that we live in a city with finite resources. If you’d like to suggest ideas, try to come up with something that might actually work on in the real world.

DC has one of the highest allocation of money per kid in the country. Yet, absolutely nothing to show for it as kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level.

I suggest getting rid of at least 1/2 of the bloated central office and the remaining work on getting these teachers and aides for the support services into every title 1 elementary school. That would be a good start.

Where does the data show kids are graduating on a 3rd or 4th grade level. I've seen data that shows students not at a 4 (proficient) or above on PARCC but not data that shows how far behind they are or what the average grade level is for graduates.

I suggest you talk to some high school teachers at these poorly performing schools then. It will be a reality check. They know these kids should not graduate and pass but it’s a systemic problem in DCPS which they can’t change.

+1 the data exists but is not publicly available like PARCC. DCPS is constantly administering standardized tests - as a ES teacher, I know where my students are performing in real time throughout the year (all the BOY, MOY & EOY tests); it is supported by classroom performance on assignments - those assessments provide excellent grade level information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


So high school is just the jail alternative? If the kid don;t want to be there, are years behind what exactly makes you think they are showing up to class, or if they do, totally disruptive.


Yes, high school is a jail alternative for some kids. Exactly. And they are probably not the most attentive students and their attendance is likely not great.

However, the research is clear that if we instead hold these kids back, then more will drop out completely and more will end up in jail or dead. This is pretty awful, but it’s true.

Also, as a PP pointed out, plenty of kids who are not “proficient” on PARCC tests are, in fact, functionally literate and numerate. Those kids can get jobs rather than going to college, just like most Americans (62%).

The school system that is supposed the entirety of children in a city cannot be simply a "jail alternative." And if you keep the chronically truant, disruptive and inattentive in the classes with everybody else, then you will rapidly see the parents of every kid who doesn't fit into that category bolt for other alternatives as soon as they can obtain one. Which is exactly where we are with every gen-ed EOTP high school.

Downsize central office and redeploy the funds for more boots on the ground personnel; reinstitute tracking for core subjects while at same time striving to identify and encourage kids who CAN do upper level work to go for those classes; implement robust CTE so that kids who are not into writing academic papers have an option to graduate from high school with employable trade skills that will enable them to be firmly in the middle class.

What research-supported alternative do you suggest for the “chronically truant and inattentive”? And who gets to decide which kids get to stay? If inattentive kids get kicked out of school, then my school career would have been very short, instead of leading me to 3 graduate degrees. I was extremely inattentive and bored through high school. So, who gets to choose? And what do they do when the parents of kids who are kicked out appeal?

Again, the easy solutions people love to propose on this forum are magical thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


So high school is just the jail alternative? If the kid don;t want to be there, are years behind what exactly makes you think they are showing up to class, or if they do, totally disruptive.


Yes, high school is a jail alternative for some kids. Exactly. And they are probably not the most attentive students and their attendance is likely not great.

However, the research is clear that if we instead hold these kids back, then more will drop out completely and more will end up in jail or dead. This is pretty awful, but it’s true.

Also, as a PP pointed out, plenty of kids who are not “proficient” on PARCC tests are, in fact, functionally literate and numerate. Those kids can get jobs rather than going to college, just like most Americans (62%).

The school system that is supposed the entirety of children in a city cannot be simply a "jail alternative." And if you keep the chronically truant, disruptive and inattentive in the classes with everybody else, then you will rapidly see the parents of every kid who doesn't fit into that category bolt for other alternatives as soon as they can obtain one. Which is exactly where we are with every gen-ed EOTP high school.

Downsize central office and redeploy the funds for more boots on the ground personnel; reinstitute tracking for core subjects while at same time striving to identify and encourage kids who CAN do upper level work to go for those classes; implement robust CTE so that kids who are not into writing academic papers have an option to graduate from high school with employable trade skills that will enable them to be firmly in the middle class.

What research-supported alternative do you suggest for the “chronically truant and inattentive”? And who gets to decide which kids get to stay? If inattentive kids get kicked out of school, then my school career would have been very short, instead of leading me to 3 graduate degrees. I was extremely inattentive and bored through high school. So, who gets to choose? And what do they do when the parents of kids who are kicked out appeal?

Again, the easy solutions people love to propose on this forum are magical thinking.

give me a break. I am guessing your inattentive ADD wasnt the same as a 14 year old throwing chairs, punching the teacher and reading on a 3rd grade level.

[Anonymous]

I would suggest that families who can't get into Jackson-Reed (Wilson) consider Eastern. Eastern took my favorite assistant principal from JR, Steven Miller. He was the most competent, responsive, together school leader I've dealt with in the 13 years I've been a DCPS parent. I was so disappointed to learn he was leaving JR but super happy for Eastern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


So high school is just the jail alternative? If the kid don;t want to be there, are years behind what exactly makes you think they are showing up to class, or if they do, totally disruptive.


Yes, high school is a jail alternative for some kids. Exactly. And they are probably not the most attentive students and their attendance is likely not great.

However, the research is clear that if we instead hold these kids back, then more will drop out completely and more will end up in jail or dead. This is pretty awful, but it’s true.

Also, as a PP pointed out, plenty of kids who are not “proficient” on PARCC tests are, in fact, functionally literate and numerate. Those kids can get jobs rather than going to college, just like most Americans (62%).

The school system that is supposed the entirety of children in a city cannot be simply a "jail alternative." And if you keep the chronically truant, disruptive and inattentive in the classes with everybody else, then you will rapidly see the parents of every kid who doesn't fit into that category bolt for other alternatives as soon as they can obtain one. Which is exactly where we are with every gen-ed EOTP high school.

Downsize central office and redeploy the funds for more boots on the ground personnel; reinstitute tracking for core subjects while at same time striving to identify and encourage kids who CAN do upper level work to go for those classes; implement robust CTE so that kids who are not into writing academic papers have an option to graduate from high school with employable trade skills that will enable them to be firmly in the middle class.

What research-supported alternative do you suggest for the “chronically truant and inattentive”? And who gets to decide which kids get to stay? If inattentive kids get kicked out of school, then my school career would have been very short, instead of leading me to 3 graduate degrees. I was extremely inattentive and bored through high school. So, who gets to choose? And what do they do when the parents of kids who are kicked out appeal?

Again, the easy solutions people love to propose on this forum are magical thinking.

give me a break. I am guessing your inattentive ADD wasnt the same as a 14 year old throwing chairs, punching the teacher and reading on a 3rd grade level.

THIS