Can we spreadload FRL% across APS? Arlington / Education Newbie here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So glad you agree! This is what people who just don't want anything to ever change do - they shoot down every single suggestion, find any reason to criticize it and deem it infeasible, then ask for solutions. Just because you don't like the solution doesn't mean it isn't a solution or wouldn't be an improvement or part of an overall solution.

I'm not even sure what your point about middle school late buses is. Parents generally pickup their kids from extended day at the same time each day. If parents still want to pick them up before a late bus would leave, they could do so. Or, instead of having to drive so far out of their way, they could just let the late bus bring their kids closer to home and meet them there at that time. The parents would be meeting elementary kids at the bus stop; so I don't see the relevance of your DST point at all.

I am all for change, you just need to realize that what you are proposing is logistically difficult at best, and potentially unsafe for many parents. I am simply pointing out what is wrong with your solution -- everyone says "add late buses for extended day" but in reality, this is not feasible or desirable for most people.
Take an actual look at your schools late bus for middle or high school. My MS kids' late bus only goes to about 1/3 of the bus stops -- the stops are like "hub stops" for the option schools. For some kids, the nearest late bus stop is over half a mile away. Imagine that for an elementary school kid -- you would have a late bus that drops off at 6 or later that not a short walk from your house. You will be walking with a young child for a long distance, in the dark for most of the winter, very close to when they go to bed. That in itself would be undesirable for most parents (similar to the argument that the bus is not feasible for most parents picking up from extended day). Add the fact that if there isn't an adult to meet the child, they can't let the child be unattended if they are under the age of 8. If a parent is running late, the kid will either be left there (if over the age of 8) in the dark far from home, or will have to be transported back to a central location where they wait to get picked up. The transportation back to a central location would be after most school administers leave, so something would have to be figured out there. The "a parent must meet a young child" rule is the reason why this idea is not feasible.
It would be more feasible to have extended day be considered completely independent of where your kid goes to school (allow enrollment and transportation to the nearest school for extended day). That would add costs though, so you would really have to justify it.
There are alternatives to bussing. I've talked on this board multiple times the idea of moving to a more upper and lower school idea to stop the extreme levels of FRL rates. You can create larger zones really easily, and they would probably be much less controversial in some cases.
For example:
Fleet and Randolph or Barcroft
Barrett and Long Branch
Abingdon and Drew
Carlin Springs and Ashlawn
Glebe and Barrett
ASFS and Innovation
Hoffman Boston and Oakridge
You can solve the extended day issue by having a single bus that takes kids from one extended day to the other (parents can sign up for the school closer to them). You solve the walkzone impact by having a single bus or a shuttle that picks up from one school and goes to the other (you have a single bus instead of having to create multiple bus stops). You solve the parent involvement issue by having a single pta across the upper/lower schools and having that pta do events at each school. Keep parent teacher conferences virtual. This seems more plausible than a pure lottery system.

I'm fine with alternative solutions and appreciate that you've actually detailed a thoughtful alternative. It's when people just point out what's wrong with someone's suggestion and leaves it at "it's not feasible. can't do it." conclusion that irks me, and that's what your previous reply seemed to do. I've actually suggested similar in past discussions with people about busing from extended day to places closer to home - apartment buildings, a closer school.

Also, whenever these issues come up, the conversation seems to operate on the assumption that all people live within walking distance of their school. Everybody has to have a neighborhood school rather than lottery across the area or across the county because they want to be close and be able to walk to school. But not everyone lives within walking distance to a school. And many who do will still drive to the school to drop off or pick up their kids on their way to and from work, or to avoid the rain, or because it's faster or whatever.

I understand different people have different means and needs. But it's not possible to make it perfect for everyone and most people are going to need to compromise a little and make a little sacrifice once in a while.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Explain it to me like I'm 5 and know nothing about APS, districting, education theory, etc. Why can't we set a standard FRL % at every school to guarantee the same education experience across Arlington? I'm new to this but Arlington is kinda small - why can't this happen for the good of everyone? Is it because the idea of bussing kids around has a history? I'm sure there's a way to do it equitably.

I read everyone being up in arms about school redistricting in Arlington and it just seems like this is the answer. Why have schools 70 to 80%FRL and others like 15%? Sure, north Arlington blah blah blah paid higher costs, but honestly south Arlington will probably catch up in costs because it's closer to Amazon and the airport. It's already getting pretty expensive and will one day will catch up. Why not catch up the schools ahead of time?

LOL sure when everyone pays the same taxes for their houses

Is there a special tax for entitled dicks? Cuz we’d generate tons of revenue for schools that way.

Ok, here's an idea: offer 50% (or whatever number) less property taxes for each year a north Arlington kid goes to a south Arlington school.

More effective would be to give each south Arlington family who rents $1000 for each kid they send to a school in the north. There's more capacity in the northern schools and it would make a bigger difference for the economically disadvantaged child.

[Anonymous]

There are alternatives to bussing. I've talked on this board multiple times the idea of moving to a more upper and lower school idea to stop the extreme levels of FRL rates. You can create larger zones really easily, and they would probably be much less controversial in some cases.
For example:
Fleet and Randolph or Barcroft
Barrett and Long Branch
Abingdon and Drew
Carlin Springs and Ashlawn
Glebe and Barrett
ASFS and Innovation
Hoffman Boston and Oakridge
You can solve the extended day issue by having a single bus that takes kids from one extended day to the other (parents can sign up for the school closer to them). You solve the walkzone impact by having a single bus or a shuttle that picks up from one school and goes to the other (you have a single bus instead of having to create multiple bus stops). You solve the parent involvement issue by having a single pta across the upper/lower schools and having that pta do events at each school. Keep parent teacher conferences virtual. This seems more plausible than a pure lottery system.

I think the problem with this is it still leaves all those schools in the high north with 2% frl totally unaffected and not doing their share. I think you would be hard pressed to convince the parents at Oakridge and Fleet and Long Branch ect who are already at the county average for FRL or higher, to have their schools suddenly increase 20-30% in FRL while other schools still sit with 2%.

This is the thing people don't get about the existing schools in South Arlington and how #s and math work. There are too many frl students in the south to balance out numbers without involving the very low poverty schools in the far north of the county. As things currently stand in South arlington you have about 5 schools over 60% FRL and about 6 schools that are in the 30-40% range. You re-arrange in zones or upper/lower schools and suddenly every single school is over 50% frl. You've gone from more than half of the schools being in the sweet spot to all of them being majority frl and many studies have shown that over 50% frl is where performance drops off a cliff. It is not equity to do that to every school south of the historic segregation red line while people in the North sit at 2% poverty schools. There is no acceptable solution that doesn't include all schools in the county.

For comparison north Arlington has 2 schools at 60+ frl, and 11 schools under 40%, 6 of which are under 10%. The further north and west, the lower the frl.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

There are alternatives to bussing. I've talked on this board multiple times the idea of moving to a more upper and lower school idea to stop the extreme levels of FRL rates. You can create larger zones really easily, and they would probably be much less controversial in some cases.
For example:
Fleet and Randolph or Barcroft
Barrett and Long Branch
Abingdon and Drew
Carlin Springs and Ashlawn
Glebe and Barrett
ASFS and Innovation
Hoffman Boston and Oakridge
You can solve the extended day issue by having a single bus that takes kids from one extended day to the other (parents can sign up for the school closer to them). You solve the walkzone impact by having a single bus or a shuttle that picks up from one school and goes to the other (you have a single bus instead of having to create multiple bus stops). You solve the parent involvement issue by having a single pta across the upper/lower schools and having that pta do events at each school. Keep parent teacher conferences virtual. This seems more plausible than a pure lottery system.

I think the problem with this is it still leaves all those schools in the high north with 2% frl totally unaffected and not doing their share. I think you would be hard pressed to convince the parents at Oakridge and Fleet and Long Branch ect who are already at the county average for FRL or higher, to have their schools suddenly increase 20-30% in FRL while other schools still sit with 2%.

This is the thing people don't get about the existing schools in South Arlington and how #s and math work. There are too many frl students in the south to balance out numbers without involving the very low poverty schools in the far north of the county. As things currently stand in South arlington you have about 5 schools over 60% FRL and about 6 schools that are in the 30-40% range. You re-arrange in zones or upper/lower schools and suddenly every single school is over 50% frl. You've gone from more than half of the schools being in the sweet spot to all of them being majority frl and many studies have shown that over 50% frl is where performance drops off a cliff. It is not equity to do that to every school south of the historic segregation red line while people in the North sit at 2% poverty schools. There is no acceptable solution that doesn't include all schools in the county.

For comparison north Arlington has 2 schools at 60+ frl, and 11 schools under 40%, 6 of which are under 10%. The further north and west, the lower the frl.

Right - exactly this. It is no small sacrifice or little inconvenience to move kids from Drew to Jamestown. It's a huge logistical nightmare that no one wants. You can shuffle kids around schools within S. Arlington but as PP points out, that doesn't do much to the overall FRL rate except make them equally majority poor.

The real problem is housing, and the fact that there is no space among the manicured SFH neighborhoods in the north to put AH, so it continues to get dumped on the south. That is what needs to change, and lottery/busing would be a cure worse than the disease which still solves nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not going to happen. Everyone is ok with the status quo except for the people who bought SFHs zoned to Drew, Barcroft, Randolph, or Carlin Springs and didn't get into an option school.

This is the shortest, best answer to the original question. Arlington has always been dividing between a wealthy, mostly white North in which nearly every neighborhood had discriminatory real estate covenants, and a blue collar, more diverse South. The South is bifurcating. It’s both gentrifying but huge committed affordable housing complexes are concentrating poverty ina a handful of schools at their highest levels ever. These developments are mostly built in South Arlington because land is cheaper and lacks the organized resistance of North Arlington.

Another thing to know is that South Arlington is not half of the county, it’s about a third. Historically, it’s had almost no clout; for the first 50 years of its history, there weren’t many, if any board members from SA. That’s how we got all the good stuff, like the water treatment plant and no Metro. Even now that there are members from SA, they are elected by NA. That’s where the votes are. There’s just more people there and more of them are eligible to vote. And they are wealthier, so more likely to have resources and be engaged in politics. The south is less well off, has fewer resources, fewer people, and more ineligible voters (immigrants).

Which brings us back to the quoted comment. The local Dems DGAF about pursuing segregationist housing policy. They think they are on the side of the angels and anyway, they key to their staying in power is to not piss off the north Arlington majority. Showing any deference to SA on school demographics would do that. It’s been true forever, but the early 90s attempt to address the issue crashed and burned after a year of effort. Same old story: white north Arlington parents wouldn’t accept more poor kids. What emerged was the current grand bargain: the local dems build affordable housing, but only in SA. That lets them sleep at night and feel clean in their cozy NA enclaves. Option schools are offered to placate the SA middle class (and a significant number of actual NA liberals who don’t want to be hypocrites when it comes to diversity, classism, antiracism.) but, there’s not enough option school slots to totally suppress the issue, so it comes up now and then. That’s why a previous poster assumed you were SA and zoned to a high poverty school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So redlining, and its effects today, isn’t racism? But talking about it is? Like “reverse racism”? Okay then.

^^^ This right here is how we got the nutters screaming about CRT in schools. They don’t want to examine the hideous underbelly of how we got where we are.

DP, the current housing situations are most definitely the result of redlining and racism in the past. The fact that many parents of all races and SES levels don't want to bus their elementary and middle school kids all over the county is not by default racism as much as you want it to be.

Yes, also DP here in S. Arlington at a "poor school." I don't know how many times it needs to be said: People do not want to move schools! Our school may have high FRL but the teachers are great and families are having a good experience. Maybe not as fancy an experience. But no one I know wants to be bused 30 min. away to go to school. They just don't!

Agree that it's better to work on future planning and projects of AH.

School policy is housing policy. If you want SA school demographics to be more balanced, your have to play a long game and focus on housing, not boundaries. Good luck — affordable housing is a sacred cow here and fully integrated into the county’s business. There are just tons and tons of people whose jobs are related to the current system. The only solution is to stop building CAFs in South Arlington and start building as many townhomes as possible instead. Unfortunately, the county knows this full well and in the past has pursued anti-townhome development policies because they are seen as “a threat” to affordable housing. That’s the language of county staff, not mine.

That's all well and good; but does absolutely nothing to break up the concentrated poverty Arlington has already entrenched in specific neighborhoods and areas of the County. It doesn't solve the problem.

[Anonymous]

This thread is just a perennial thing. You can’t fight the developers and the affordable housing advocates in Arlington. They are the ones who perpetuate the segregation. They live in N Arlington. But it is just that small subset of people (I can name names) who are profiting from this who are really to blame. And the S Arlington county board members who get contributions from them. Don’t blame the generic N Arlington population. It’s far more insidious than rich wanting to stay away from the poor. It’s rich making money off segregation through affordable housing. Plain and simple.

[Anonymous]

Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.

Besides the Immersion ES’s, there’s what, 3 option ES? ATS, Montessori, and Campbell. All 3 of those schools have FRL % far exceeding NA schools. So, how does that do anything? I don’t think that would make the difference you’re asserting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.

Besides the Immersion ES’s, there’s what, 3 option ES? ATS, Montessori, and Campbell. All 3 of those schools have FRL % far exceeding NA schools. So, how does that do anything? I don’t think that would make the difference you’re asserting.

Yeah, I think that could make more UMC/MC move out of S. Arlington (so a permanent brain/resource drain) to either north or to FCPS or private. Then you have real estate in S. Arlington losing value, which makes it possible for AHC to swoop up more tracts, and it's a downward spiral from there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.


Besides the Immersion ES’s, there’s what, 3 option ES? ATS, Montessori, and Campbell. All 3 of those schools have FRL % far exceeding NA schools. So, how does that do anything? I don’t think that would make the difference you’re asserting.


Yeah, I think that could make more UMC/MC move out of S. Arlington (so a permanent brain/resource drain) to either north or to FCPS or private. Then you have real estate in S. Arlington losing value, which makes it possible for AHC to swoop up more tracts, and it's a downward spiral from there.

Yes - this exactly!!! All these people who are anti-option school assume you get rid of options and suddenly the FRL #s in S. Arlington will balanced. That isn't true - again because there are so many more FRL kids in S. Arlington and because N. Arlington families also use options. You get rid of options and maybe you have 4-5 non-frl kids in a classroom rather than 2-3. Still not enough to make it ok so you lose buy-in and they either move or go private. They don't stick around to go to majority poverty schools. Options create buy-in and provide a reason to stick it out with arlington. Whats going to be really interesting is when Wakefields #s which have been creeping up finally hit that mark where people panic and you get a situation where people are not willing to send kids there. Will the county build that 4th high school or will you have an issue with the house of cards crumbling?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.


Besides the Immersion ES’s, there’s what, 3 option ES? ATS, Montessori, and Campbell. All 3 of those schools have FRL % far exceeding NA schools. So, how does that do anything? I don’t think that would make the difference you’re asserting.


Yeah, I think that could make more UMC/MC move out of S. Arlington (so a permanent brain/resource drain) to either north or to FCPS or private. Then you have real estate in S. Arlington losing value, which makes it possible for AHC to swoop up more tracts, and it's a downward spiral from there.

Yes - this exactly!!! All these people who are anti-option school assume you get rid of options and suddenly the FRL #s in S. Arlington will balanced. That isn't true - again because there are so many more FRL kids in S. Arlington and because N. Arlington families also use options. You get rid of options and maybe you have 4-5 non-frl kids in a classroom rather than 2-3. Still not enough to make it ok so you lose buy-in and they either move or go private. They don't stick around to go to majority poverty schools. Options create buy-in and provide a reason to stick it out with arlington. Whats going to be really interesting is when Wakefields #s which have been creeping up finally hit that mark where people panic and you get a situation where people are not willing to send kids there. Will the county build that 4th high school or will you have an issue with the house of cards crumbling?

I actually think ArlCo wants people who can afford private to leave APS to make room in the already overcrowded schools. There won’t be money for a 4th high school. I would expect novel solutions like virtual school and office space being leased for “vertical schools.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.


Besides the Immersion ES’s, there’s what, 3 option ES? ATS, Montessori, and Campbell. All 3 of those schools have FRL % far exceeding NA schools. So, how does that do anything? I don’t think that would make the difference you’re asserting.


Yeah, I think that could make more UMC/MC move out of S. Arlington (so a permanent brain/resource drain) to either north or to FCPS or private. Then you have real estate in S. Arlington losing value, which makes it possible for AHC to swoop up more tracts, and it's a downward spiral from there.

Yes - this exactly!!! All these people who are anti-option school assume you get rid of options and suddenly the FRL #s in S. Arlington will balanced. That isn't true - again because there are so many more FRL kids in S. Arlington and because N. Arlington families also use options. You get rid of options and maybe you have 4-5 non-frl kids in a classroom rather than 2-3. Still not enough to make it ok so you lose buy-in and they either move or go private. They don't stick around to go to majority poverty schools. Options create buy-in and provide a reason to stick it out with arlington. Whats going to be really interesting is when Wakefields #s which have been creeping up finally hit that mark where people panic and you get a situation where people are not willing to send kids there. Will the county build that 4th high school or will you have an issue with the house of cards crumbling?

I actually think ArlCo wants people who can afford private to leave APS to make room in the already overcrowded schools. There won’t be money for a 4th high school. I would expect novel solutions like virtual school and office space being leased for “vertical schools.”

I agree with this, but I think it's really shortsighted of APS and the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not going to happen. Everyone is ok with the status quo except for the people who bought SFHs zoned to Drew, Barcroft, Randolph, or Carlin Springs and didn't get into an option school.

This is the shortest, best answer to the original question. Arlington has always been dividing between a wealthy, mostly white North in which nearly every neighborhood had discriminatory real estate covenants, and a blue collar, more diverse South. The South is bifurcating. It’s both gentrifying but huge committed affordable housing complexes are concentrating poverty ina a handful of schools at their highest levels ever. These developments are mostly built in South Arlington because land is cheaper and lacks the organized resistance of North Arlington.

Another thing to know is that South Arlington is not half of the county, it’s about a third. Historically, it’s had almost no clout; for the first 50 years of its history, there weren’t many, if any board members from SA. That’s how we got all the good stuff, like the water treatment plant and no Metro. Even now that there are members from SA, they are elected by NA. That’s where the votes are. There’s just more people there and more of them are eligible to vote. And they are wealthier, so more likely to have resources and be engaged in politics. The south is less well off, has fewer resources, fewer people, and more ineligible voters (immigrants).

Which brings us back to the quoted comment. The local Dems DGAF about pursuing segregationist housing policy. They think they are on the side of the angels and anyway, they key to their staying in power is to not piss off the north Arlington majority. Showing any deference to SA on school demographics would do that. It’s been true forever, but the early 90s attempt to address the issue crashed and burned after a year of effort. Same old story: white north Arlington parents wouldn’t accept more poor kids. What emerged was the current grand bargain: the local dems build affordable housing, but only in SA. That lets them sleep at night and feel clean in their cozy NA enclaves. Option schools are offered to placate the SA middle class (and a significant number of actual NA liberals who don’t want to be hypocrites when it comes to diversity, classism, antiracism.) but, there’s not enough option school slots to totally suppress the issue, so it comes up now and then. That’s why a previous poster assumed you were SA and zoned to a high poverty school.

This is how White UMC liberals always behave and there’s no area in the DC region that displays Upper Caucasia values more than North Arlington. They also find other ways to repel Asian Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.

Killing option schools wouldn’t help Sourh Arlington schools. Here’s a simple fact: all schools are choice schools. If you remove the choice to go to an integrated option school (and yes, the option schools account for most of the schools in Arlington with an FRL rate near the county average) people will still have choices. They can move or go private. And they will.

The FRL rate in SA is around 50 percent. Heck, tell the non-option parents at Oakridge or Fleet that were going to eliminate options and make sure everyone in SA goes to a school where half the class is on food stamps. See what happens.