Lapsed Catholics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason I like the structure and dogma is that it is something I can aim at a work on weekly. The reason I don’t like the people is because they are not nice and it doesn’t seem like the fruits of their labor are actually good.

All the people?

No, but unfortunately there are too many bad apples to make it a healthy place. You can't get away from them easily.

Every church? Everywhere?

Can you name a church with no bad apples? I’d like to go.

Can you name any organization—neighborhood listserve, workplace, even DCUM, with no bad apples? If your standard is “zero” bad apples, that seems unrealistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For DH, who grew up very Catholic (several of his aunts are nuns) it was going to college and becoming sexually active that drove him from being a practicing Catholic. And then when the church abuse scandal broke and he saw the church's reaction, he totally broke from them and really started badmouthing them to anyone who will listen.

In fact, all his siblings left the Catholic church.

Then, after his brother died, DH's parents also stopped going.

We ultimately became Presbyterian.

I don't think there is anything parents can do. The structure and dogna of the Catholics is what drives people away.

“The structure and [sic] dogna of the Catholics is what drives people away.”

Nonsense. People’s own choices “drive” them away just as surely as if they got into their own car, started the engine, and left the parking lot. Blaming the Church for personal decisions to reject its beliefs, deny the reality of sin in one’s own life, seek the grace of repentance and be absolved is the fundamental hypocrisy that appears over and over in these pages. To reject “dogma,” one has to understand it, and people who have left the Church over legitimate dogmatic differences that they can intelligently articulate are few and far between. People stop practicing do so in large part because they enjoy their sins, don’t want to stop, feel guilty about it, and decide to blame somebody else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. The sex scandals, to which Presbyterians and other religious and secular organizations are hardly immune, is another false excuse.

I see you one day, in the near future, standing smugly on an altar and wagging your finger at a person walking out of the church, piously chastising them for their “choice” to leave and haughtily dismissing their concerns as a failure to take personal responsibility.

Then, you suddenly realize that you are the only person left in the church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason I like the structure and dogma is that it is something I can aim at a work on weekly. The reason I don’t like the people is because they are not nice and it doesn’t seem like the fruits of their labor are actually good.

All the people?

No, but unfortunately there are too many bad apples to make it a healthy place. You can't get away from them easily.

Every church? Everywhere?

Can you name a church with no bad apples? I’d like to go.

I think the sex abuse in the church and the cover-up by the priests and parishioners along with the haughty attitude towards others is just not worth my time to show up. I can worship God without them being in my face.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For DH, who grew up very Catholic (several of his aunts are nuns) it was going to college and becoming sexually active that drove him from being a practicing Catholic. And then when the church abuse scandal broke and he saw the church's reaction, he totally broke from them and really started badmouthing them to anyone who will listen.

In fact, all his siblings left the Catholic church.

Then, after his brother died, DH's parents also stopped going.

We ultimately became Presbyterian.

I don't think there is anything parents can do. The structure and dogna of the Catholics is what drives people away.

“The structure and [sic] dogna of the Catholics is what drives people away.”

Nonsense. People’s own choices “drive” them away just as surely as if they got into their own car, started the engine, and left the parking lot. Blaming the Church for personal decisions to reject its beliefs, deny the reality of sin in one’s own life, seek the grace of repentance and be absolved is the fundamental hypocrisy that appears over and over in these pages. To reject “dogma,” one has to understand it, and people who have left the Church over legitimate dogmatic differences that they can intelligently articulate are few and far between. People stop practicing do so in large part because they enjoy their sins, don’t want to stop, feel guilty about it, and decide to blame somebody else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. The sex scandals, to which Presbyterians and other religious and secular organizations are hardly immune, is another false excuse.

I see you one day, in the near future, standing smugly on an altar and wagging your finger at a person walking out of the church, piously chastising them for their “choice” to leave and haughtily dismissing their concerns as a failure to take personal responsibility.

Then, you suddenly realize that you are the only person left in the church.

Well, if you think I’m going to desecrate an altar by standing on it, I suspect you’re either not Catholic or at least very poorly catechized. I don’t wag my fingers at anybody, I don’t “piously chastise” anybody. But I also don’t swallow hook, line and sinker the self-serving excuses people invent to justify leaving the Church because they quite frankly would rather live contrary to its teachings.

And in case you haven’t noticed, the only churches experiencing any semblance of growth are the ones with clear doctrine who invite sinners to repentance and reconciliation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason I like the structure and dogma is that it is something I can aim at a work on weekly. The reason I don’t like the people is because they are not nice and it doesn’t seem like the fruits of their labor are actually good.

All the people?

No, but unfortunately there are too many bad apples to make it a healthy place. You can't get away from them easily.

Every church? Everywhere?

Can you name a church with no bad apples? I’d like to go.

I think the sex abuse in the church and the cover-up by the priests and parishioners along with the haughty attitude towards others is just not worth my time to show up. I can worship God without them being in my face.

If you claim to be Catholic, this is not true. Corporate worship and participation in the Eucharistic sacrifice are intrinsic to Catholicism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason I like the structure and dogma is that it is something I can aim at a work on weekly. The reason I don’t like the people is because they are not nice and it doesn’t seem like the fruits of their labor are actually good.

All the people?

No, but unfortunately there are too many bad apples to make it a healthy place. You can't get away from them easily.

Every church? Everywhere?

Can you name a church with no bad apples? I’d like to go.

I think the sex abuse in the church and the cover-up by the priests and parishioners along with the haughty attitude towards others is just not worth my time to show up. I can worship God without them being in my face.

If you claim to be Catholic, this is not true. Corporate worship and participation in the Eucharistic sacrifice are intrinsic to Catholicism.

Why I'm "lapsed".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For DH, who grew up very Catholic (several of his aunts are nuns) it was going to college and becoming sexually active that drove him from being a practicing Catholic. And then when the church abuse scandal broke and he saw the church's reaction, he totally broke from them and really started badmouthing them to anyone who will listen.

In fact, all his siblings left the Catholic church.

Then, after his brother died, DH's parents also stopped going.

We ultimately became Presbyterian.

I don't think there is anything parents can do. The structure and dogna of the Catholics is what drives people away.

“The structure and [sic] dogna of the Catholics is what drives people away.”

Nonsense. People’s own choices “drive” them away just as surely as if they got into their own car, started the engine, and left the parking lot. Blaming the Church for personal decisions to reject its beliefs, deny the reality of sin in one’s own life, seek the grace of repentance and be absolved is the fundamental hypocrisy that appears over and over in these pages. To reject “dogma,” one has to understand it, and people who have left the Church over legitimate dogmatic differences that they can intelligently articulate are few and far between. People stop practicing do so in large part because they enjoy their sins, don’t want to stop, feel guilty about it, and decide to blame somebody else instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. The sex scandals, to which Presbyterians and other religious and secular organizations are hardly immune, is another false excuse.

I see you one day, in the near future, standing smugly on an altar and wagging your finger at a person walking out of the church, piously chastising them for their “choice” to leave and haughtily dismissing their concerns as a failure to take personal responsibility.

Then, you suddenly realize that you are the only person left in the church.

Well, if you think I’m going to desecrate an altar by standing on it, I suspect you’re either not Catholic or at least very poorly catechized. I don’t wag my fingers at anybody, I don’t “piously chastise” anybody. But I also don’t swallow hook, line and sinker the self-serving excuses people invent to justify leaving the Church because they quite frankly would rather live contrary to its teachings.

And in case you haven’t noticed, the only churches experiencing any semblance of growth are the ones with clear doctrine who invite sinners to repentance and reconciliation.

LOL. Because sinners want to be forgiven without doing the work of atonement to others. They love some hail mary or our fathers or in other evangelical churches the holy spirit coming on them so they don't have to actually face their problems.

[Anonymous]

BTW you totally "piously" chastise. I put pious in quotes because I don't really think it's piousness. I think it's disguised hate.

[Anonymous]

I still identify as Catholic but don’t attend church regularly. It’s certainly not my parents causing. I think this is common with many religions.

It sounds like you might be worried about your own family or your own children I’m not quite sure. If that’s the case, I would just recommend keeping it fun and making sure that your children understand that religion is inclusionary.

[Anonymous]

The Catholic church covered up the systematic abuse of children by thousands of priests all over the world. That means there was a problem with their bureaucracy. Their administration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason I like the structure and dogma is that it is something I can aim at a work on weekly. The reason I don’t like the people is because they are not nice and it doesn’t seem like the fruits of their labor are actually good.

All the people?

No, but unfortunately there are too many bad apples to make it a healthy place. You can't get away from them easily.

Every church? Everywhere?

Can you name a church with no bad apples? I’d like to go.

I think the sex abuse in the church and the cover-up by the priests and parishioners along with the haughty attitude towards others is just not worth my time to show up. I can worship God without them being in my face.

If you claim to be Catholic, this is not true. Corporate worship and participation in the Eucharistic sacrifice are intrinsic to Catholicism.

You really need to get your head out of an old theology book and take a look around you. Stop parroting centuries-old philosophical musings and objectively look at how the Church today in 2022 relates to people and ministers (or fails to minister) to their needs. People want trust. People want relationships. People want spiritual food. People want hope. Shoving dusty philosophical tenets down people's throats while using lofty words that are unrelatable to many will only drive more and more people away.

[Anonymous]

I come from a large Irish Catholic family, though my mom was a young widow and I was an only child. My mom had a college degree, somewhat unusual for her time, but it was from a Catholic women’s college. I attended Catholic school until college, though my mom very much wanted me to attend the college she had.

Sooooo many things my mom, family, Catholic school and church did made me want to leave. The list is too long. But whatever Catholic doctrine applied to any given situation, you’d better believe we followed it. Only now, at age 58, do I have the understanding that I was raised in a cult-like environment.

DH is not Catholic. We baptized our kids as such because my mom would have disowned me otherwise. Frankly, the only reason I got away with marrying a non-Catholic is because DH is a charming guy. Mom loved him.

In my extended family, relatives were disowned upon divorce. My devout aunt and uncle missed YEARS of knowing their first grandchild, who was born out of wedlock.

My biggest regret is that I never had the freedom to choose religion for myself, nor could I raise my kids outside the church. We did baptism, confession, and communion for all 4 of our kids, but my mom was in her 90s and not aware of our household happenings as much, so we skipped confirmation for the 4th.

I was robbed from having any freedom of thought or action until I was much older and realized how the cultlike environment of my upbringing had directed so many aspects of my life.

At my mom’s funeral, I turned around and looked inside the cathedral as we left. Barring any wedding that I feel I’ simply must attend, I vowed on the spot that I would never set foot in a Catholic Church again. And I haven’t.

Just don’t raise your kids with edicts regarding religion, whatever religion you may practice. Catholicism has a LOT of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I come from a large Irish Catholic family, though my mom was a young widow and I was an only child. My mom had a college degree, somewhat unusual for her time, but it was from a Catholic women’s college. I attended Catholic school until college, though my mom very much wanted me to attend the college she had.

Sooooo many things my mom, family, Catholic school and church did made me want to leave. The list is too long. But whatever Catholic doctrine applied to any given situation, you’d better believe we followed it. Only now, at age 58, do I have the understanding that I was raised in a cult-like environment.

DH is not Catholic. We baptized our kids as such because my mom would have disowned me otherwise. Frankly, the only reason I got away with marrying a non-Catholic is because DH is a charming guy. Mom loved him.

In my extended family, relatives were disowned upon divorce. My devout aunt and uncle missed YEARS of knowing their first grandchild, who was born out of wedlock.

My biggest regret is that I never had the freedom to choose religion for myself, nor could I raise my kids outside the church. We did baptism, confession, and communion for all 4 of our kids, but my mom was in her 90s and not aware of our household happenings as much, so we skipped confirmation for the 4th.

I was robbed from having any freedom of thought or action until I was much older and realized how the cultlike environment of my upbringing had directed so many aspects of my life.

At my mom’s funeral, I turned around and looked inside the cathedral as we left. Barring any wedding that I feel I’ simply must attend, I vowed on the spot that I would never set foot in a Catholic Church again. And I haven’t.

Just don’t raise your kids with edicts regarding religion, whatever religion you may practice. Catholicism has a LOT of them.

Hi PP!

I certainly don't doubt any of what you have written. However, as a Catholic from a large Irish-German family who is just a year older than you, I had a very different experience that I'd like to share.

My parents were devout (and both college educated), but sent me to public school and I went on to attend a public university. I married a non-Catholic, divorced, and married again after a few years. There was no disowning, just entirely-appropriate sadness that I had managed to run my first marriage onto the rocks.

I was given the freedom to wander away from my faith starting in high school (and I did), before "choosing religion for myself" in my early thirties. Basically, as I got older I came to realize more and more that my dad was no dummy. I decided it might be worthwhile for me to figure out why his faith was so important to him. And so I did, and that has been an enormous gift that has changed my life profoundly in a positive way.

I'm saddened by reading of your experience of the faith, which seems to have been driven by your mom and her family. I obviously never met them, but I do know that some people tend to like rules that can give structure to their lives, and can sometimes get hung up on them. That works for them, I guess, and I wouldn't take it away from them, but it's not for everybody. Clearly it wasn't for you, and it colored your experience negatively.

But Catholicism is about love, and mercy, and forgiveness, and charity, and healing, and beauty, and virtue, and a thousand other things. If that got lost in your family's rule-mindedness that's a tragedy. But it's never too late to set aside the baggage of the "cultlike environment of your upbringing" and wonder what else might be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I come from a large Irish Catholic family, though my mom was a young widow and I was an only child. My mom had a college degree, somewhat unusual for her time, but it was from a Catholic women’s college. I attended Catholic school until college, though my mom very much wanted me to attend the college she had.

Sooooo many things my mom, family, Catholic school and church did made me want to leave. The list is too long. But whatever Catholic doctrine applied to any given situation, you’d better believe we followed it. Only now, at age 58, do I have the understanding that I was raised in a cult-like environment.

DH is not Catholic. We baptized our kids as such because my mom would have disowned me otherwise. Frankly, the only reason I got away with marrying a non-Catholic is because DH is a charming guy. Mom loved him.

In my extended family, relatives were disowned upon divorce. My devout aunt and uncle missed YEARS of knowing their first grandchild, who was born out of wedlock.

My biggest regret is that I never had the freedom to choose religion for myself, nor could I raise my kids outside the church. We did baptism, confession, and communion for all 4 of our kids, but my mom was in her 90s and not aware of our household happenings as much, so we skipped confirmation for the 4th.

I was robbed from having any freedom of thought or action until I was much older and realized how the cultlike environment of my upbringing had directed so many aspects of my life.

At my mom’s funeral, I turned around and looked inside the cathedral as we left. Barring any wedding that I feel I’ simply must attend, I vowed on the spot that I would never set foot in a Catholic Church again. And I haven’t.

Just don’t raise your kids with edicts regarding religion, whatever religion you may practice. Catholicism has a LOT of them.

Hi PP!

I certainly don't doubt any of what you have written. However, as a Catholic from a large Irish-German family who is just a year older than you, I had a very different experience that I'd like to share.

My parents were devout (and both college educated), but sent me to public school and I went on to attend a public university. I married a non-Catholic, divorced, and married again after a few years. There was no disowning, just entirely-appropriate sadness that I had managed to run my first marriage onto the rocks.

I was given the freedom to wander away from my faith starting in high school (and I did), before "choosing religion for myself" in my early thirties. Basically, as I got older I came to realize more and more that my dad was no dummy. I decided it might be worthwhile for me to figure out why his faith was so important to him. And so I did, and that has been an enormous gift that has changed my life profoundly in a positive way.

I'm saddened by reading of your experience of the faith, which seems to have been driven by your mom and her family. I obviously never met them, but I do know that some people tend to like rules that can give structure to their lives, and can sometimes get hung up on them. That works for them, I guess, and I wouldn't take it away from them, but it's not for everybody. Clearly it wasn't for you, and it colored your experience negatively.

But Catholicism is about love, and mercy, and forgiveness, and charity, and healing, and beauty, and virtue, and a thousand other things. If that got lost in your family's rule-mindedness that's a tragedy. But it's never too late to set aside the baggage of the "cultlike environment of your upbringing" and wonder what else might be there.

Lovely but it's not on topic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I come from a large Irish Catholic family, though my mom was a young widow and I was an only child. My mom had a college degree, somewhat unusual for her time, but it was from a Catholic women’s college. I attended Catholic school until college, though my mom very much wanted me to attend the college she had.

Sooooo many things my mom, family, Catholic school and church did made me want to leave. The list is too long. But whatever Catholic doctrine applied to any given situation, you’d better believe we followed it. Only now, at age 58, do I have the understanding that I was raised in a cult-like environment.

DH is not Catholic. We baptized our kids as such because my mom would have disowned me otherwise. Frankly, the only reason I got away with marrying a non-Catholic is because DH is a charming guy. Mom loved him.

In my extended family, relatives were disowned upon divorce. My devout aunt and uncle missed YEARS of knowing their first grandchild, who was born out of wedlock.

My biggest regret is that I never had the freedom to choose religion for myself, nor could I raise my kids outside the church. We did baptism, confession, and communion for all 4 of our kids, but my mom was in her 90s and not aware of our household happenings as much, so we skipped confirmation for the 4th.

I was robbed from having any freedom of thought or action until I was much older and realized how the cultlike environment of my upbringing had directed so many aspects of my life.

At my mom’s funeral, I turned around and looked inside the cathedral as we left. Barring any wedding that I feel I’ simply must attend, I vowed on the spot that I would never set foot in a Catholic Church again. And I haven’t.

Just don’t raise your kids with edicts regarding religion, whatever religion you may practice. Catholicism has a LOT of them.

It’s a shame that you seem never to have learned why the teachings are what they are, so that you could develop an adult Faith and not merely react to what you perceived externally as “edicts.”