Is BIPOC the new term to use? What happened to just POC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

Why are you walking down the street sharing your name for all the lurking neo nazis to hear?

Snark aside, yes I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well. That is not what is being discussed right now, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

Because I’ve been told so. It’s from experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

Why are you walking down the street sharing your name for all the lurking neo nazis to hear?

Snark aside, yes I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well. That is not what is being discussed right now, though.

This is a thread about BIPOC and how it’s defined. Part of that is figuring out who is white.

It’s absolutely relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

Why are you walking down the street sharing your name for all the lurking neo nazis to hear?

Snark aside, yes I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well. That is not what is being discussed right now, though.

This is a thread about BIPOC and how it’s defined. Part of that is figuring out who is white.

It’s absolutely relevant.

Nobody is saying Jewish people are white. Or maybe one out of dozens of PPs did? But to be honest, tons of Jews can pass as white. Darker skinned POC just cannot. People don’t have to know their names to discriminate against them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

Why are you walking down the street sharing your name for all the lurking neo nazis to hear?

Snark aside, yes I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well. That is not what is being discussed right now, though.

This is a thread about BIPOC and how it’s defined. Part of that is figuring out who is white.

It’s absolutely relevant.

Nobody is saying Jewish people are white. Or maybe one out of dozens of PPs did? But to be honest, tons of Jews can pass as white. Darker skinned POC just cannot. People don’t have to know their names to discriminate against them.

First of all, lots of PPs said that.

Second, using skin color is a stupid standard. Iranians, Mongolians, etc have light skin. Are they white?

[Anonymous]

Also, lots of people use more than skin color to figure out someone’s background.

One of my friends in college has curly hair and is short. Everyone assumed he was Jewish — for better or worse. He’s not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

We are also more specifically talking about the present day US, where large scale genocides of Jews have never taken place.

It's really not a contest. There should be recognition from all sides in order to push the dialogue forward. It just seems like, perhaps in this thread in particular, there's a fair amount of resistance from Jewish Americans to acknowledge what you just did. Thanks for making the effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

We are also more specifically talking about the present day US, where large scale genocides of Jews have never taken place.

It's really not a contest. There should be recognition from all sides in order to push the dialogue forward. It just seems like, perhaps in this thread in particular, there's a fair amount of resistance from Jewish Americans to acknowledge what you just did. Thanks for making the effort.

I will remind you again of two things:

1. I always said Black Americans have it worse

2. Jews are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group, including Black Americans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

Why are you walking down the street sharing your name for all the lurking neo nazis to hear?

Snark aside, yes I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well. That is not what is being discussed right now, though.

This is a thread about BIPOC and how it’s defined. Part of that is figuring out who is white.

It’s absolutely relevant.

Nobody is saying Jewish people are white. Or maybe one out of dozens of PPs did? But to be honest, tons of Jews can pass as white. Darker skinned POC just cannot. People don’t have to know their names to discriminate against them.

First of all, lots of PPs said that.

Second, using skin color is a stupid standard. Iranians, Mongolians, etc have light skin. Are they white?

I really don’t get what you are trying to accomplish. Are you one of the “All Lives Matter” people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

My name is obviously Jewish. My ability to hide my identity is harder than you think.

You are intent on minimizing my experience, which i never said was equivalent to Black Americans. It’s just sad.

Why are you walking down the street sharing your name for all the lurking neo nazis to hear?

Snark aside, yes I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well. That is not what is being discussed right now, though.

This is a thread about BIPOC and how it’s defined. Part of that is figuring out who is white.

It’s absolutely relevant.

Nobody is saying Jewish people are white. Or maybe one out of dozens of PPs did? But to be honest, tons of Jews can pass as white. Darker skinned POC just cannot. People don’t have to know their names to discriminate against them.

First of all, lots of PPs said that.

Second, using skin color is a stupid standard. Iranians, Mongolians, etc have light skin. Are they white?

I really don’t get what you are trying to accomplish. Are you one of the “All Lives Matter” people?

Of course not. I went to a BLM protest.

I just think using skin color to determine if someone is a POC is stupid. Asians have light skin and face plenty of discrimination. Heck, Walter White was African American and had blonde hair and blue eyes. His parents were slaves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

Because I’ve been told so. It’s from experience.

No snark intended, but...what did you hope to get from the experience? I would probably question the sincerity of your motives if I were a POC because, while you can hide your religion from strangers relatively well, I cannot change my skin color. I would think we would have pretty different experiences and support approaches / strategies to move around in the world as a result.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

Because I’ve been told so. It’s from experience.

No snark intended, but...what did you hope to get from the experience? I would probably question the sincerity of your motives if I were a POC because, while you can hide your religion from strangers relatively well, I cannot change my skin color. I would think we would have pretty different experiences and support approaches / strategies to move around in the world as a result.

Do you know the history of Blacks and Jews working together during the civil rights movement in the 60s? I was trying to continue a long history of Jews being allies. Right before MLK spoke at the March on Washington, a Rabbi spoke: https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3814893/amp

I wasn’t welcome. I was told Jews aren’t wanted as allies because we are just white people. I was actually called a white supremacist.

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Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

We are also more specifically talking about the present day US, where large scale genocides of Jews have never taken place.

It's really not a contest. There should be recognition from all sides in order to push the dialogue forward. It just seems like, perhaps in this thread in particular, there's a fair amount of resistance from Jewish Americans to acknowledge what you just did. Thanks for making the effort.

I will remind you again of two things:

1. I always said Black Americans have it worse

2. Jews are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group, including Black Americans

I don't know why you keep making point #2 - I got it the first time. And for what it's worth, I have read plenty of contradictory statistics:
Of the 8,819 hate crime victims reported to the FBI in 2018 (in 7,120 separate incidents):
2,426 were targeted because of anti-black bias;
1,445 because of sexual orientation or gender identity bias;
1,038 because of anti-white bias;
920 because of anti-Jewish bias;

https://www.splcenter.org/20180415/hate-crimes-explained

As to point #1, I don't feel comfortable assigning degrees of severity to discrimination/ suffering, especially as evidenced by your point #2. One in every 1,000 black man will die at the hands of police. That's really astonishing, just like the high level of hate crimes against Jews. Like I said, not a contest, just an acknowledgement.