Is BIPOC the new term to use? What happened to just POC?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a person descended from european immigrants (with classically "white" skin that sunburns) ….

Many posters are making me ridiculously uncomfortable because they are basically advocating for the Paper Bag Test, 2.0 They don't say that of course, but in effect that's how they select who gets to self identify as a "POC" and who doesn't.

Basically, a rule out / rule in test on the explicit basis of physiological features, starting with skin tone. (super pale skinned Egyptian woman with thin nose and wavy, shiny hair? Nope. Dark olive skinned Egyptian woman — say, the color of a PAPER BAG — with 4c curls and a wide nose bridge? YES.).

Yes I understand that this is about self identity, but, it's undeniable that there are multiple posters who want to act as the hall monitor for others' racial labels

Appearance - yes, skin color - is important because it often dictates how you get treated. You can identify as a POC or BIPOC or whatever, but it’s by and large visibly darker skinned minorities who are profiled and discriminated against.

Yes, but as other have said, there are extremely violent people—Neo-Nazis in particular—who don’t give 2 shts about your skin color. If they know you’re a Jew, they’ll kill you.

This! This is exactly it - you phrased it well. "IF" they know you're Jewish. I am acknowledging that I am generalizing, and that there are many exceptions to the lighter skinned Jewish person (I am good friends with two black Americans who are Jewish, for example). But because we are speaking in generalizations, as one must when it comes to systemic racism (not to be confused with individualized racism), implicit in your sentence framing is the notion that the odds are decent and/or at the very least - the odds exist - that the hypothetical Neo-Nazi will not know you are Jewish *unless* you tell them. Can you try to distance yourself from the pain of your plight temporarily, and see that black Americans do not have this option when it comes to revealing the color of their skin to equally hateful strangers?

I said multiple times that Black people have it worse.

But you also need to realize that Jews have hidden our religion for centuries because of multiple genocides against us.

Also, you should know that outside America, many people can pick out a Jew pretty quickly. I lived in Russia and people there knew immediately that I’m Jewish. There was no hiding it. Same when I visited Germany.

We are talking about the US. Try to stay on topic.

We are also more specifically talking about the present day US, where large scale genocides of Jews have never taken place.

It's really not a contest. There should be recognition from all sides in order to push the dialogue forward. It just seems like, perhaps in this thread in particular, there's a fair amount of resistance from Jewish Americans to acknowledge what you just did. Thanks for making the effort.

I will remind you again of two things:

1. I always said Black Americans have it worse

2. Jews are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group, including Black Americans

I don't know why you keep making point #2 - I got it the first time. And for what it's worth, I have read plenty of contradictory statistics:
Of the 8,819 hate crime victims reported to the FBI in 2018 (in 7,120 separate incidents):
2,426 were targeted because of anti-black bias;
1,445 because of sexual orientation or gender identity bias;
1,038 because of anti-white bias;
920 because of anti-Jewish bias;

https://www.splcenter.org/20180415/hate-crimes-explained

As to point #1, I don't feel comfortable assigning degrees of severity to discrimination/ suffering, especially as evidenced by your point #2. One in every 1,000 black man will die at the hands of police. That's really astonishing, just like the high level of hate crimes against Jews. Like I said, not a contest, just an acknowledgement.

Point 2 is per capita, not raw numbers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

Because I’ve been told so. It’s from experience.

No snark intended, but...what did you hope to get from the experience? I would probably question the sincerity of your motives if I were a POC because, while you can hide your religion from strangers relatively well, I cannot change my skin color. I would think we would have pretty different experiences and support approaches / strategies to move around in the world as a result.

Do you know the history of Blacks and Jews working together during the civil rights movement in the 60s? I was trying to continue a long history of Jews being allies. Right before MLK spoke at the March on Washington, a Rabbi spoke: https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3814893/amp

I wasn’t welcome. I was told Jews aren’t wanted as allies because we are just white people. I was actually called a white supremacist.

Honestly, if I were you I would've taken a very different approach. I would have joined Hillel and then helped organize my group's leadership to reach out to the POC affinity group's leadership and start a dialogue that way. It sounds like you put them on the spot and probably confused them; they clearly didn't realize the sincerity of your motivations right away, and they most likely didn't know how to relate or react on the spot to a white person showing up. It's very possible several had never met a Jewish person before, so they would have zero frame of reference aside from seeing the color of your skin.

Also, Jewish-Black relations during the 50's and 60's weren't as kumbaya as they are now often romanticized to be. This is a really good, quick interview with a Jewish professor on the subject. He even faced a really similar situation as you did in walking up to the African Student Union table during his first week at Berkeley in the 80's (and he got laughed away!). https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2018/06/04/613683819/exploding-myths-about-black-power-jewish-politics

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that link. I don’t really agree with him. For one, no one I know goes back to slavery in Egypt as the common oppression reference point. For me, and the Jews I know, it’s the Holocaust and the continued anti-Semitism we face. Most of us have relatives who died in the Holocaust and many of us are here because of the Holocaust or the pogroms. It’s far from ancient history. It’s the experience of our parents and grandparents, and our continued problems today.

Second, I don’t agree that Jews were mainstream by the 1950s. We aren’t mainstream now. We are 1% of the population. Elite universities didn’t get rid of their formal Jewish quotas until the 1960s in some cases, and informal discrimination persisted well after that. The movie School Ties is set in the 1950s and is about the anti-Semitism a Jewish kid faces at a private school.

Listen — our experience is much better than Black Americans’ experience, but I think he really misses the mark.

[Anonymous]

I will remind you again of two things:

1. I always said Black Americans have it worse

2. Jews are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group, including Black Americans

NP. You may want to dig more deeply into the data. Hate crimes against the Jewish community are far more likely to be property crimes than they are to be crimes against an individual, which renders the comparision somewhat meaningless.

Yes, it is traumatizing when a synagogue is targeted for vandalism, or a cemetary. Those are serious crimes that should be investigated and punished. But hate crimes against individual Jewish people are relatively rare, in part because outside the Orthodox communities, Jews are not easily targeted. On the other hand, hate crimes against Black people (or Latino/Hispanic, or Asian/Middle Eastern) are more likely to be perpetuated directly onto the person.

I think we can all agree that crimes against people are worse than crimes against property, even if both are bad.

[Anonymous]

Guys, what does it matter who has had it worse? All the time and energy we spend deciding who stands on what podium when they're handing out persecution medals is time that we could be spending fighting systemic racism (and this is a common distraction tactic by those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo).

Can't we just agree that the system is trash and act accordingly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I will remind you again of two things:

1. I always said Black Americans have it worse

2. Jews are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group, including Black Americans

NP. You may want to dig more deeply into the data. Hate crimes against the Jewish community are far more likely to be property crimes than they are to be crimes against an individual, which renders the comparision somewhat meaningless.

Yes, it is traumatizing when a synagogue is targeted for vandalism, or a cemetary. Those are serious crimes that should be investigated and punished. But hate crimes against individual Jewish people are relatively rare, in part because outside the Orthodox communities, Jews are not easily targeted. On the other hand, hate crimes against Black people (or Latino/Hispanic, or Asian/Middle Eastern) are more likely to be perpetuated directly onto the person.

I think we can all agree that crimes against people are worse than crimes against property, even if both are bad.

You haven’t read much about Hasidic Jews getting attacked in Brooklyn, then.

Overall hate crimes per capita: Jews are #1
Violent hate crimes per capita: Jews are #4

That’s from 2008-2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#Victims_in_the_United_States

You decide what that means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Guys, what does it matter who has had it worse? All the time and energy we spend deciding who stands on what podium when they're handing out persecution medals is time that we could be spending fighting systemic racism (and this is a common distraction tactic by those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo).

Can't we just agree that the system is trash and act accordingly?

Problem is there are a lot of people who want to minimize the experience of various groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I will remind you again of two things:

1. I always said Black Americans have it worse

2. Jews are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than any other group, including Black Americans

NP. You may want to dig more deeply into the data. Hate crimes against the Jewish community are far more likely to be property crimes than they are to be crimes against an individual, which renders the comparision somewhat meaningless.

Yes, it is traumatizing when a synagogue is targeted for vandalism, or a cemetary. Those are serious crimes that should be investigated and punished. But hate crimes against individual Jewish people are relatively rare, in part because outside the Orthodox communities, Jews are not easily targeted. On the other hand, hate crimes against Black people (or Latino/Hispanic, or Asian/Middle Eastern) are more likely to be perpetuated directly onto the person.

I think we can all agree that crimes against people are worse than crimes against property, even if both are bad.

You haven’t read much about Hasidic Jews getting attacked in Brooklyn, then.

Overall hate crimes per capita: Jews are #1
Violent hate crimes per capita: Jews are #4

That’s from 2008-2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#Victims_in_the_United_States

You decide what that means.

Interestingly, Jews are more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes than Hispanics. They are less likely than Blacks, Muslims, or LGBT individuals. Sadly, LGBT individuals are the most likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. Blacks are 3rd, behind Muslims.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

Because I’ve been told so. It’s from experience.

No snark intended, but...what did you hope to get from the experience? I would probably question the sincerity of your motives if I were a POC because, while you can hide your religion from strangers relatively well, I cannot change my skin color. I would think we would have pretty different experiences and support approaches / strategies to move around in the world as a result.

Do you know the history of Blacks and Jews working together during the civil rights movement in the 60s? I was trying to continue a long history of Jews being allies. Right before MLK spoke at the March on Washington, a Rabbi spoke: https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3814893/amp

I wasn’t welcome. I was told Jews aren’t wanted as allies because we are just white people. I was actually called a white supremacist.

NP. Did you show up and make everything about you, as you have so thoroughly done with this thread about BIPOC? If your responses here are indicative of how you discuss race irl, I can imagine why you were not welcomed.

[Anonymous]

Interestingly, Jews are more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes than Hispanics. They are less likely than Blacks, Muslims, or LGBT individuals. Sadly, LGBT individuals are the most likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. Blacks are 3rd, behind Muslims.

I would be careful about over-interpreting that first piece. Hispanic residents of the United States do not have high levels of trust in law enforcement, and are substantially less likely to report hate crimes than other communities. So, we can say that Jews are more likely to report violent hate crimes than Hispanics, but we don't really have a lot of visibility on whether they are more likely to be victims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Somewhat related, can someone explain to me why POC is now a no-no term? Is it because it doesn't center blackness? A black woman who seems to consider herself a spiritual leader on my FaceBook feed announced she was going to unfriend the next person who used the term POC. Why?

I assume because people want to focus on the groups within POC who people thinks continue to suffer most - Black people more than, say, a person of East Asian descent. Both are POC, but I gotta say as a person of East Asian descent I got some dirty looks from black and Hispanic students for showing up to a POC event in college. I assume BIPOC is to prevent stuff like that from happening

But as a Jewish person, I still wouldn’t be accepted.

By all means, show up. In a similar fashion to an non-Jewish Asian college student showing up to Hillel, there might be plenty of questions around what you're hoping to get out of the experience?

But not sure why you're just automatically assuming you wouldn't be accepted.

Because I’ve been told so. It’s from experience.

No snark intended, but...what did you hope to get from the experience? I would probably question the sincerity of your motives if I were a POC because, while you can hide your religion from strangers relatively well, I cannot change my skin color. I would think we would have pretty different experiences and support approaches / strategies to move around in the world as a result.

Do you know the history of Blacks and Jews working together during the civil rights movement in the 60s? I was trying to continue a long history of Jews being allies. Right before MLK spoke at the March on Washington, a Rabbi spoke: https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3814893/amp

I wasn’t welcome. I was told Jews aren’t wanted as allies because we are just white people. I was actually called a white supremacist.

NP. Did you show up and make everything about you, as you have so thoroughly done with this thread about BIPOC? If your responses here are indicative of how you discuss race irl, I can imagine why you were not welcomed.

Not at all.

Here I’m having a conversation. There I listened almost entirely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Interestingly, Jews are more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes than Hispanics. They are less likely than Blacks, Muslims, or LGBT individuals. Sadly, LGBT individuals are the most likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. Blacks are 3rd, behind Muslims.

I would be careful about over-interpreting that first piece. Hispanic residents of the United States do not have high levels of trust in law enforcement, and are substantially less likely to report hate crimes than other communities. So, we can say that Jews are more likely to report violent hate crimes than Hispanics, but we don't really have a lot of visibility on whether they are more likely to be victims.

Again, minimizing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Interestingly, Jews are more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes than Hispanics. They are less likely than Blacks, Muslims, or LGBT individuals. Sadly, LGBT individuals are the most likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. Blacks are 3rd, behind Muslims.

I would be careful about over-interpreting that first piece. Hispanic residents of the United States do not have high levels of trust in law enforcement, and are substantially less likely to report hate crimes than other communities. So, we can say that Jews are more likely to report violent hate crimes than Hispanics, but we don't really have a lot of visibility on whether they are more likely to be victims.

Again, minimizing.

NP, Jewish woman. Actually, by continuing to link and compare your (our) discrimination to blacks, you are minimizing their experience- as also evidenced by all these pages debating the classification of Jewish Americans. This one isn’t about you and it comes across as out of touch and self-centered to draw attention to yourself. My Muslim friend has never felt the need to ever try and compare his experiences with religious discrimination to blacks, and his skin color is darker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Interestingly, Jews are more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes than Hispanics. They are less likely than Blacks, Muslims, or LGBT individuals. Sadly, LGBT individuals are the most likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. Blacks are 3rd, behind Muslims.

I would be careful about over-interpreting that first piece. Hispanic residents of the United States do not have high levels of trust in law enforcement, and are substantially less likely to report hate crimes than other communities. So, we can say that Jews are more likely to report violent hate crimes than Hispanics, but we don't really have a lot of visibility on whether they are more likely to be victims.

Again, minimizing.

NP, Jewish woman. Actually, by continuing to link and compare your (our) discrimination to blacks, you are minimizing their experience- as also evidenced by all these pages debating the classification of Jewish Americans. This one isn’t about you and it comes across as out of touch and self-centered to draw attention to yourself. My Muslim friend has never felt the need to ever try and compare his experiences with religious discrimination to blacks, and his skin color is darker.

I never said our experience was the same as Black Americans; I’ve said the opposite. I’ve solely tried to correct inaccuracies, of which there are many on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Interestingly, Jews are more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes than Hispanics. They are less likely than Blacks, Muslims, or LGBT individuals. Sadly, LGBT individuals are the most likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. Blacks are 3rd, behind Muslims.

I would be careful about over-interpreting that first piece. Hispanic residents of the United States do not have high levels of trust in law enforcement, and are substantially less likely to report hate crimes than other communities. So, we can say that Jews are more likely to report violent hate crimes than Hispanics, but we don't really have a lot of visibility on whether they are more likely to be victims.

Again, minimizing.

NP, Jewish woman. Actually, by continuing to link and compare your (our) discrimination to blacks, you are minimizing their experience- as also evidenced by all these pages debating the classification of Jewish Americans. This one isn’t about you and it comes across as out of touch and self-centered to draw attention to yourself. My Muslim friend has never felt the need to ever try and compare his experiences with religious discrimination to blacks, and his skin color is darker.

I agree as another Jewish woman (the one who called you embarrassing upthead). The fact that you have continued to dig in on a thread that has nothing to with Jewish people is just a bad look. I hate when my experiences as a Jewish person are minimized also, but this is not the time and place to be having the suffering Olympics with people of color, of which I will continue to strongly assert we are not.