Why do top US universities weed out most pre-med kids & then we import foreign MDs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. ...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

That's what I heard from other students. I'm sure you are at the tippy-top at your career, though, pp, DCUM posters putting down others always are.

The reality is that the U.S. system for educating and training doctors is hellish.

People who have problems with depression or anxiety should probably not try to become doctors in the United States. If they really want to get into health care, maybe they should consider becoming nurses, or medical technologists.

Nursing or med tech is better for people with depression or anxiety?!?!

Have you actually ever visited a hospital???

Nursing at a hospital is a very very hard job.

Nursing at, say, a dermatologists or pediatricians office is probably not so bad.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

But that's why you also need MCAT score. It "normalizes" the playing field for everyone. If Duke kids are truly smarter/courses harder/better prepared than typical state Us, their MCAT scores will show and US med schools will be full of Duke kids. And no state U kids will be able to go to decent medical schools, right?

This is one of the reasons that med schools give little (although they will give a bit) of credit to the quality of undergrad.

The MCAT is the great equalizer. If you went to a no where near any tier college and get a 3.9, but have a 518 on the MCAT (97th percentile), as my DD did with respect to both, you can get into a mid tier or better med school. Provided, of course, all the extra stuff like clinical hours, volunteering, and shadowing are there. And that no where college turns out to be a plus because med schools like to accept from a broad spectrum of colleges.

A kid who went to Duke and got a 3.5 or 3.6 and a 518 would also have a shot at a mid-tier, but, perhaps unfairly, not as good a one as my DD.

What this means in terms of college planning is that if a smart high school kid wants to be a doctor and is not naturally the person who will be at the top of curve in the science weed out classes, he should not aim for a top undergrad with grade deflation.

Go to a lower rated college that attracts few pre-meds and that will give financial aid for his 98 percentile SAT and stellar high school grades. Then you have a win-win: a better chance at a higher science GPA and more money to spend for MCAT tutoring and med school.

Hopkins literally tortures their undergrads with super difficult courses, sets up competitive internships for the students where they are all working long hours - ususally for no pay - on top of that, and then accepts virtually none of their undergrads to their med school. I am not religious but I prayed that my DD wouldn’t go there honestly. (She didn’t).
Hopkins med school accepts students from a very wide range of undergrad schools, including state schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

But that's why you also need MCAT score. It "normalizes" the playing field for everyone. If Duke kids are truly smarter/courses harder/better prepared than typical state Us, their MCAT scores will show and US med schools will be full of Duke kids. And no state U kids will be able to go to decent medical schools, right?

This is one of the reasons that med schools give little (although they will give a bit) of credit to the quality of undergrad.

The MCAT is the great equalizer. If you went to a no where near any tier college and get a 3.9, but have a 518 on the MCAT (97th percentile), as my DD did with respect to both, you can get into a mid tier or better med school. Provided, of course, all the extra stuff like clinical hours, volunteering, and shadowing are there. And that no where college turns out to be a plus because med schools like to accept from a broad spectrum of colleges.

A kid who went to Duke and got a 3.5 or 3.6 and a 518 would also have a shot at a mid-tier, but, perhaps unfairly, not as good a one as my DD.

What this means in terms of college planning is that if a smart high school kid wants to be a doctor and is not naturally the person who will be at the top of curve in the science weed out classes, he should not aim for a top undergrad with grade deflation.

Go to a lower rated college that attracts few pre-meds and that will give financial aid for his 98 percentile SAT and stellar high school grades. Then you have a win-win: a better chance at a higher science GPA and more money to spend for MCAT tutoring and med school.

Hopkins literally tortures their undergrads with super difficult courses, sets up competitive internships for the students where they are all working long hours - ususally for no pay - on top of that, and then accepts virtually none of their undergrads to their med school. I am not religious but I prayed that my DD wouldn’t go there honestly. (She didn’t).
Hopkins med school accepts students from a very wide range of undergrad schools, including state schools.

She didn’t? Or couldn’t?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Er, the average grade at Duke is an A, 3.5. Grade inflation much? Must be real “hard”.

At Duke, everyone is a winner!

I worked in admissions at a very competitive graduate program (think top tier law or medical school) and most transcripts we got had the student's %ile in their undergrad on it. For schools like Harvard, it was printed right next to the GPA on the official transcript. That %ile was what we looked at.

Interesting. If you have a kid who is 50%tile from top tier vs a 90%tile kid from state U. How would you compare?

[Anonymous]

Literally torture. You’re so dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Er, the average grade at Duke is an A, 3.5. Grade inflation much? Must be real “hard”.

At Duke, everyone is a winner!

I worked in admissions at a very competitive graduate program (think top tier law or medical school) and most transcripts we got had the student's %ile in their undergrad on it. For schools like Harvard, it was printed right next to the GPA on the official transcript. That %ile was what we looked at.

Interesting. If you have a kid who is 50%tile from top tier vs a 90%tile kid from state U. How would you compare?

This is where the MCAT plays a huge role in comparing kids from disparate schools. GPA does matter--very difficult to get in if it is below 3.6. In addition, they will look at the quality and quantity of clinical and shadowing experience and community volunteering and research work (latter mostly for top tier med school, also known as the research med schools).

[Anonymous]

We had planned on my DD going to community college for her first two years, then going to a 4 year school. She wants to go into the medical profession and we know how expensive that path can be.

Then she did some research and learned some programs won't give credit for science classes taken at a community college, not even first semester bio/chemistry/physics. Once she got to the 4 year, she would have to retake them. That means she could do maybe one year at community college to take care of a bunch of non-science courses, but she'd still be looking at 3+ years at a 4 year college in order to fit in all the science classes. It's really frustrating, because it seems obvious that if she is able to get the required science GPA at both community college and 4 year, she'd be fine. Especially since all the programs also have an additional test (MCAT for med school, DAT for dental school) which would expose any weaknesses. It feels like a money grab.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We had planned on my DD going to community college for her first two years, then going to a 4 year school. She wants to go into the medical profession and we know how expensive that path can be.

Then she did some research and learned some programs won't give credit for science classes taken at a community college, not even first semester bio/chemistry/physics. Once she got to the 4 year, she would have to retake them. That means she could do maybe one year at community college to take care of a bunch of non-science courses, but she'd still be looking at 3+ years at a 4 year college in order to fit in all the science classes. It's really frustrating, because it seems obvious that if she is able to get the required science GPA at both community college and 4 year, she'd be fine. Especially since all the programs also have an additional test (MCAT for med school, DAT for dental school) which would expose any weaknesses. It feels like a money grab.

UDC could be a cheap university option and she could transfer from there. Or just stay. Look at the thread about the DS that wants to transfer to UDC. A poster there has a senior at UDC who so far has five med school acceptances.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/777012.page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Prosecutors used the fugitive status of 16 medical professionals who have fled the U.S. to keep Dr. Rajendra Bothra jailed while he awaits trial in a nearly $500 million conspiracy, one of the largest health care fraud cases in U.S. history.

The medical professionals who have fled for overseas destinations including India, Jordan, Pakistan and Egypt in recent years have two things in common: foreign ties and big bank accounts that have financed flights from justice.

Only the best...

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2018/12/12/feds-cope-rash-rich-doctors-fleeing-u-s-amid-opioid-crisis/2275474002/

A judge gave that $500M opioid doctor bail yesterday. I’d bet the family bolts to India on a private jet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Er, the average grade at Duke is an A, 3.5. Grade inflation much? Must be real “hard”.

At Duke, everyone is a winner!

I worked in admissions at a very competitive graduate program (think top tier law or medical school) and most transcripts we got had the student's %ile in their undergrad on it. For schools like Harvard, it was printed right next to the GPA on the official transcript. That %ile was what we looked at.

So does this mean that at a grade inflated school everyone is 90%ile ? How can they really distinguish relative ranking? Harvard undergraduate is the largest feeder to their own graduate programs. Does it really matter what the grades are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Er, the average grade at Duke is an A, 3.5. Grade inflation much? Must be real “hard”.

At Duke, everyone is a winner!

I worked in admissions at a very competitive graduate program (think top tier law or medical school) and most transcripts we got had the student's %ile in their undergrad on it. For schools like Harvard, it was printed right next to the GPA on the official transcript. That %ile was what we looked at.

So does this mean that at a grade inflated school everyone is 90%ile ? How can they really distinguish relative ranking? Harvard undergraduate is the largest feeder to their own graduate programs. Does it really matter what the grades are?

Even in the seventies, half of Harvard graduated cum laude.

[Anonymous]

The ones we weed out are weak or unfocused or lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have mostly been impressed by the "bedside manner" of immigrant doctors I have had. And their knowledge.

The one mishap I can recall was an urgent care doctor named Omar. I went in with a fever and what turned out to be a 70/40 bp with a MRSA cellulitis infection (I had had them roughly 1x/per year for at least 10 years).

So I was in a daze to begin with, and this guy was stunningly gorgeous (and wearing high-fashion jacket, shirt, and pocket square). Usually with the MRSA I would be prescribed either sulfa or clindomyxin and there would always be a discussion as to what I had been treated with in the past. This guy whipped out an Rx for Keflex. It puzzled me bt, like I said, dazed and smitten.

It was definitely the wrong Rx and I went back in the next day and got the right one.

But I think his underlying flaw was that he was so goddamned gorgeous and I think knew it.

Stupid American

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Er, the average grade at Duke is an A, 3.5. Grade inflation much? Must be real “hard”.

At Duke, everyone is a winner!

I worked in admissions at a very competitive graduate program (think top tier law or medical school) and most transcripts we got had the student's %ile in their undergrad on it. For schools like Harvard, it was printed right next to the GPA on the official transcript. That %ile was what we looked at.

So does this mean that at a grade inflated school everyone is 90%ile ? How can they really distinguish relative ranking? Harvard undergraduate is the largest feeder to their own graduate programs. Does it really matter what the grades are?

Not really. You can go to Harvard or another top graduate program. If you really screw up and fail something take a year or so off and apply again.

[Anonymous]

I'm sure this is been mentioned and I just missed it, but the premise is wrong. Medical schools via the AMA, are exceedingly picky and take fewer students then we actually need because it is been a way to keep their salaries artificially high for decades: keeping doctors in scarcity and in demand

I have not been keeping up to see if they've been opening this up a little bit, but I'm guessing if you're seeing a lot of foreign doctors, the answer is no. They're still getting the doctors they need without having to glut the market and lower salaries