war in Gaza

[Anonymous]

The Israeli state did not exist in 1920 - so how could Israel have done this?

There was (and is) a Zionist movement to re-establish a Jewish homeland that was resurgent 1900 - 1940 (I believe it dates back centuries). Perhaps you are confusing the two?

I think most people on this thread know that Israel didn't exist in 1920. As the link to the review that I posted indicates, the sources that Pappe explores includes Israeli archival materials and interviews with Zionist leaders that suggest plans to wipe out Palestine as early as the 1920s, eg. predating the Israeli state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media. In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms. Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."


Guess Im a bigot for thinking that way of life is backwards.

Ah, pulled that straight from Mitchell Bard, I see. And he's the most knowledgeable, informed, fair-minded Middle East source you and your mad googling skills could come up with?

"Mitchell Bard is the Executive Director of the nonprofit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and a foreign policy analyst who lectures frequently on U.S.-Middle East policy. Dr. Bard is also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the world’s most comprehensive online encyclopedia of Jewish history and culture.

For three years he was the editor of the Near East Report, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's (AIPAC) weekly newsletter on U.S. Middle East policy.

Prior to working at AIPAC, Dr. Bard served as a senior analyst in the polling division of the 1988 Bush campaign."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media. In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms. Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."


Guess Im a bigot for thinking that way of life is backwards.

Yes, it is wrong that violations of human rights in Middle Eastern countries have not gotten enough attention. And what is especially shameful is that we give enormous amounts of aid to Egypt, which suppresses dissent. Additionally we count Saudi Arabia and Kuwait among our allies -- two countries that have nothing even close to a democratic system and that treat women like second class citizens. Iran is even more democratic than Saudi Arabia.

How does that justify Israel dropping bombs on people who cannot run away from the battle field because there is nowhere to run? The Israeli military is using phosphorus to illuminate the battlefield which is burning away people's skins. Should we say, oh that doesn't matter, because Israel's a democracy?

And as I noted earlier, Israel is not a democracy like the United States. For all our flaws (and we have many), we at least say we want to treat all of our citizens equally regardless of race and ethnicity. Palestinian, Bedouin, and Druse citizens of Israel are not treated equally and if you look at survey data you'll find that the majority of Israel's Jewish citizens are just fine with that. In the United States, at least we've gotten to the point where people say they think that's wrong.

[Anonymous]

"While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media. In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms. Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."

Guess Im a bigot for thinking that way of life is backwards.

Two comments:

1. I think it is a huge mistake to lump together the entire Arab world in this discussion. It is this type of un-nuanced approach that makes an already difficult problem even more difficult to solve.

2. There is a lot I think is broken in the Palestinian territories. There is a lot I don't like, and some people that are nasty people. I think that about the US as well. In both situations I don't think a perfect society is a prerequisite for the civilized world to be outraged about an entire population of human beings being physically walled into slums with abhorrent conditions, or having the crap bombed out of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media. In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms. Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."


Guess Im a bigot for thinking that way of life is backwards.

Ah, pulled that straight from Mitchell Bard, I see. And he's the most knowledgeable, informed, fair-minded Middle East source you and your mad googling skills could come up with?

"Mitchell Bard is the Executive Director of the nonprofit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and a foreign policy analyst who lectures frequently on U.S.-Middle East policy. Dr. Bard is also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the world’s most comprehensive online encyclopedia of Jewish history and culture.

For three years he was the editor of the Near East Report, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's (AIPAC) weekly newsletter on U.S. Middle East policy.

Prior to working at AIPAC, Dr. Bard served as a senior analyst in the polling division of the 1988 Bush campaign."


and you're point would be?

[Anonymous]

It's WAR. I mean, even the Terminator had to bump off a few people and he knew exactly where his target was. That's a FACT.

[Anonymous]

Wow! I support human rights and human dignity, and freedom to live and love and support a family.

I am surprised that anyone could disagree that the Arab/Muslim world is backwards in this regard. I suggest if you disagree, you try being a poor person there, instead of here, or even in Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, it scares me. My husband is Jewish, and we are thinking of raising our kids Jewish, but this one issue, namely the Israel lobby and Israeli politics makes me wonder. I 'm not sure that I want my kids to be a part of that mess.

Please raise your children in your religion of choice. Don't let Israeli politics and actions dictate that. I'm saying this as someone who is very pro-Arab by the way. Very pro-Arab. But Judaism rocks. What's happening in the middle east is extraordinarily complex and has no easy solution. Teach your children to respect human life and different religions, just as I am doing. Sadly, I think it will take generations to realize anything good, though.

I completely agree with this. We cannot begin to try and figure out the right or wrong way to "fix" this war. This has been going on thousands of years. Many Americans cannot relate to the feelings the isrealis/palestenians have because we've never had to be in a situation like this. It's easy to point fingers and take a side, but this goes a lot deeper than whats been posted here.

To the poster who asked why the USA always sides with Isreal? The easiest and probably the most controversial answer is that it is biblical. And no matter if you like it or not, our countries leaders are influenced a lot by what the bible says.

Please remember, this is why WE separate church from state. Much of what is in the Bible makes no sense to many people, and is not applicable to today's circumstances.
We should be careful not to get sucked into these Biblical issues. I have more faith in our founding fathers than I have in some vague Moses, or and Angel, or Jesus. I have more information about the psyche, motivation, and lives of Madison and Washington than I do about Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed.
If we can show that our foreign policy decisions were motivated by the Bible, then that would be a violation of our constitution, wouldn't it?

I disagree - there are many readings, sayings and expressions in the Bible that are extremely applicable to today's circumstances. The founding fathers based most of their idiom's on the Bible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's WAR. I mean, even the Terminator had to bump off a few people and he knew exactly where his target was. That's a FACT.

Oh, god, don't compare the very real loss of human life in Gaza to a f-ing movie!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media. In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms. Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."


Guess Im a bigot for thinking that way of life is backwards.

Ah, pulled that straight from Mitchell Bard, I see. And he's the most knowledgeable, informed, fair-minded Middle East source you and your mad googling skills could come up with?

"Mitchell Bard is the Executive Director of the nonprofit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and a foreign policy analyst who lectures frequently on U.S.-Middle East policy. Dr. Bard is also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the world’s most comprehensive online encyclopedia of Jewish history and culture.

For three years he was the editor of the Near East Report, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's (AIPAC) weekly newsletter on U.S. Middle East policy.

Prior to working at AIPAC, Dr. Bard served as a senior analyst in the polling division of the 1988 Bush campaign."


and you're point would be?

Sigh. Please stop being so disingenuous, he was and is clearly aligned with AIPAC, who are not known, even in the wildest of fantasies, to provide realistic and unbiased information on anything Arab or Muslim. No one in a million years would ever take seriously a similar ridiculous screed from a similarly highly biased source about Israel. UGH. I've read this man's ridiculous, offensive, borderline hate-filled tripe on Huffington Post.

Stop wasting my time with straw men. And please consult a spell-checker.

[Anonymous]

It always astonishes me that people will write posts to a thread like this--I mean, has anyone here convinced anyone else? I think this is one issue about which people may just need to agree to disagree in polite company, and then go forth and engage in your respective politics in your real life! Do y'all just actually enjoy arguing with anonymous strangers whom you will never persuade (on both sides of the issue)? Of course, I guess I am guilty for posting this as well...

[Anonymous]

Wow! I support human rights and human dignity, and freedom to live and love and support a family.

I am surprised that anyone could disagree that the Arab/Muslim world is backwards in this regard. I suggest if you disagree, you try being a poor person there, instead of here, or even in Israel

Some may argue that being poor in Gaza isn't harder because it is Muslim, but because of the blockade imposed on it by Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"While much attention has been focused on alleged Israeli human rights violations in the volatile West Bank and Gaza, the popular press has chosen to virtually ignore violations of fundamental human rights that take place daily in almost every Arab country. According to annual reports compiled by the State Department, most of the Arab states are ruled by oppressive, dictatorial regimes, which deny their citizens basic freedoms of political expression, speech, press and due process. The Arab Human Development Report published by a group of Arab researchers from the UN Development Program concluded that out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had the lowest freedom score. They also had the lowest ranking for "voice and accountability," a measure of various aspects of the political process, civil liberties, political rights and independence of the media. In most Arab countries, the Shari'a, or Islamic law, defines the rules of traditional social behavior. Under the law, women are accorded a role inferior to that of men, and are therefore discriminated against with regard to personal rights and freedoms. Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."


Guess Im a bigot for thinking that way of life is backwards.

Ah, pulled that straight from Mitchell Bard, I see. And he's the most knowledgeable, informed, fair-minded Middle East source you and your mad googling skills could come up with?

"Mitchell Bard is the Executive Director of the nonprofit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and a foreign policy analyst who lectures frequently on U.S.-Middle East policy. Dr. Bard is also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library, the world’s most comprehensive online encyclopedia of Jewish history and culture.

For three years he was the editor of the Near East Report, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's (AIPAC) weekly newsletter on U.S. Middle East policy.

Prior to working at AIPAC, Dr. Bard served as a senior analyst in the polling division of the 1988 Bush campaign."


and you're point would be?

Sigh. Please stop being so disingenuous, he was and is clearly aligned with AIPAC, who are not known, even in the wildest of fantasies, to provide realistic and unbiased information on anything Arab or Muslim. No one in a million years would ever take seriously a similar ridiculous screed from a similarly highly biased source about Israel. UGH. I've read this man's ridiculous, offensive, borderline hate-filled tripe on Huffington Post.

Stop wasting my time with straw men. And please consult a spell-checker.

Ha-So, you're actually going to say that what I posted (yes, what this man you hate said) is false? Are you seriously going to say that the above mentioned is wrong? If so, Id really like to see some proof that Arabs are able to speak their minds freely and women are not abused. Please, show me some information on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

First of all, you're assuming that the foreign power would never miss! I said that my house could be bombed by accident. According to your logic, that would be okay because the Navy Yard is located in a residential area. It would be okay to bomb by accident the houses of people who live next to the Marine Barracks because the Marines were so cowardly as to put their barracks in a regular neighborhood.

And if I live next door to a Senator? Or to the Secretary of State? Israel is going after political leaders. I suppose it's okay to bomb my rowhouse (by accident of course) that happens to be attached to Senator So 'n So's house? Are they hiding among civilians? Back when I lived in a nicer neighborhood, I lived near Madeline Albright and dc went to school a block from John Kerry's house. According to your logic, dc's school would be expendable because John Kerry was using the school as human shields.

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about war, not a slumber party. I think an attack anywhere on the US would probably not be "okay", regardless of whether civilians were targetted or if our unnamed enemy just didn't execute their attack with the care and precision that we could expect from more thoughtful attackers. Until micro-assassin-robot-bugs are developed (and humanely tested), there is going to be collateral damage in war. So collateral damage at your dc's school would be just as okay as damaged sustained at the original target; that is, NOT OKAY. But it's war. They're doing the best they can to accomplish their goals with a minimum of civilian casualties, seeing as how they are under the same kind of international scrutiny that the US was in Iraq. It sucks that innocents have been killed but how long would you accept rockets being fired at YOUR civilians before you broke out the heavy equipment? It might take you a while, though. There's still namedropping to be done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's WAR. I mean, even the Terminator had to bump off a few people and he knew exactly where his target was. That's a FACT.

Oh, god, don't compare the very real loss of human life in Gaza to a f-ing movie!

You have no sense of irony, do you?