A Sincere Question about Secular Christmas

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

I can imagine it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

I can imagine it.

You would have to imagine it, because that's definitely not happening in reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get the complaint about insistence that everyone celebrates Christmas. The majority do.
My dd had to sing a dreidel song at pre school even though the class had no Jewish kids. I hear Happy Hanukkah and Happy Kwanzaa being repeated over loud speakers even after those holidays have passed just because that is what is now politically correct and even though the store is filled with shoppers who most obviously are very multicultural as in Asian, Chinese, poc, and most likely no Jewish customers

Many don't. I have never heard Happy Hanukkah over a loudspeaker. Be real. It's insensitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

It doesn't have to be in the bible to make it Christian. Santa, stockings and elves are not secular. Secular means no religion. These are religious things. A true athiest wouldn't have them, nor would Jews, Muslim's or ther religions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

You cannot be serious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

It doesn't have to be in the bible to make it Christian. Santa, stockings and elves are not secular. Secular means no religion. These are religious things. A true athiest wouldn't have them, nor would Jews, Muslim's or ther religions.

ROTF, LMAO.

Elves are religious?

What about garden gnomes?

This is just TOO FUNNY.

[Anonymous]

This all comes down to tolerance. Do you really need to look down on the celebrations of the majority with disdain and contempt.
Imagine living in India and thinking that you could completely live without some influence of Hinduism?
Just put up with it. The majority really only celebrates Thanksgiving, Christmas and 4th of July.
Other holidays like Easter are easy to ignore

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

I can imagine it.

You would have to imagine it, because that's definitely not happening in reality.

In your opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

I can imagine it.

You would have to imagine it, because that's definitely not happening in reality.

In your opinion.

In my experience as a Jew who has lived in a lot of different places in the US, this is not happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This all comes down to tolerance. Do you really need to look down on the celebrations of the majority with disdain and contempt.
Imagine living in India and thinking that you could completely live without some influence of Hinduism?
Just put up with it. The majority really only celebrates Thanksgiving, Christmas and 4th of July.
Other holidays like Easter are easy to ignore

Influence of the majority is reasonably things like having a 2 week winter break at Christmastime and Christmas decorations in all the stores and Christmas music on the radio. Influence is also seen in the overblowing of Hanukkah relative to its minor status in Judaism, because of its proximity to Christmas.

There's a difference between those influences, which are reasonable in a majority Christmas-celebrating society, and direct pressure for others to understand Christmas as a secular holiday when it is not. It's a religious/cultural holiday that people from a religiously/culturally Christian background can celebrate in a secular/cultural way. The fact that they celebrate it without religious components doesn't negate that it is a religious holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This all comes down to tolerance. Do you really need to look down on the celebrations of the majority with disdain and contempt.
Imagine living in India and thinking that you could completely live without some influence of Hinduism?
Just put up with it. The majority really only celebrates Thanksgiving, Christmas and 4th of July.
Other holidays like Easter are easy to ignore

Of course we put up with it. I have no disdain or contempt for Christmas. I’m just not going to put up Christmas decorations in my house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This all comes down to tolerance. Do you really need to look down on the celebrations of the majority with disdain and contempt.
Imagine living in India and thinking that you could completely live without some influence of Hinduism?
Just put up with it. The majority really only celebrates Thanksgiving, Christmas and 4th of July.
Other holidays like Easter are easy to ignore

Of course we put up with it. I have no disdain or contempt for Christmas. I’m just not going to put up Christmas decorations in my house.

DP. More to the point, I don't care how anyone celebrates Christmas. I have no disdain or contempt for those who celebrate it as a cultural/secular thing. It certainly seems more fun to celebrate it with lights and gifts and peppermint bark than to sit in a midnight church service. I just object to the insistence (from some of those who celebrate it in a cultural manner) that everyone else should agree that it is as a secular holiday when it is not.

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Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

I can imagine it.

You would have to imagine it, because that's definitely not happening in reality.

In your opinion.

In everyone's opinion except yours. Please explain the scenario where a Jew finds a manger in a secondhand store and wants it for their own house because they celebrate secular Christmas and/but they are unaware of any of the religious components of Christmas, and so they don't realize what the manger stands for. Has this Jew been totally avoiding all culture for years? Are they just really stupid? I will stipulate that it's possible that some ultra-Orthodox Jews don't know what manger decorations are, maybe even likely, but I also think it's virtually impossible that a Hasid would go buy a manger to decorate their house for Christmas.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

Actually it’s virtually impossible to live in a mostly Christian society and not know the significance of stuff like a manger, so this hypothetical situation seems extremely imaginary.

I can imagine it.

You would have to imagine it, because that's definitely not happening in reality.

In your opinion.

In everyone's opinion except yours. Please explain the scenario where a Jew finds a manger in a secondhand store and wants it for their own house because they celebrate secular Christmas and/but they are unaware of any of the religious components of Christmas, and so they don't realize what the manger stands for. Has this Jew been totally avoiding all culture for years? Are they just really stupid? I will stipulate that it's possible that some ultra-Orthodox Jews don't know what manger decorations are, maybe even likely, but I also think it's virtually impossible that a Hasid would go buy a manger to decorate their house for Christmas.

You must be really bored today.