A Sincere Question about Secular Christmas

[Anonymous]

In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

Because 98% of it has nothing to do with the birth of your god.

The uber Christians don’t even celebrate “Christmas” - they are offended by it.

Why do you assume that PP is Christian? Lots of non-Christians/non-Jesus-believers have commented that they view the holiday as religious, even though there are secular aspects to it, and that's why they don't celebrate it. But to say that because it has secular aspects and because there are people who celebrate it who don't believe in Jesus, therefore, it's a secular holiday just doesn't follow.

NP. All Americans celebrate Thanksgiving. But it centers on Christian prayers of Thanksgiving to God for them surviving.

No, it 100% centers on turkey. Ok maybe more like 90% on turkey. 10% pie.

Thanksgiving is 100% secular. Maybe some nutters who view everything through their lens of religion might think it’s religious. But they think everything is religious.

Thanksgiving is secular now, but it wasn't at first. The Pilgrims were thanking God for surviving. They invited the Indians to share their bounty in the New World.

not really https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/thanksgiving-myth-and-what-we-should-be-teaching-kids-180973655/

Interesting! and quite different from what I learned in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

No one is offended by other people celebrating Christmas! No one is shutting it all out, either. We’re just not celebrating it ourselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

If you live in the US, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. It also means respecting others' beliefs and culture. You want to celebrate Christmas, great, but don't expect others to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

No one is offended by other people celebrating Christmas! No one is shutting it all out, either. We’re just not celebrating it ourselves.

Louder for those with their fingers in their ears!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

If you live in the US, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. It also means respecting others' beliefs and culture. You want to celebrate Christmas, great, but don't expect others to.

Is there a policeman somewhere checking up on your family to see that you’re celebrating?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

Don’t equate Christmas to religious celebrations on other countries. It’s a *secular* holiday here in the states for the vast majority of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

+1

Maybe the PP doesn’t know what secular means.

Secular:
Santa, elves, trees, songs, decorations, etc.

Religious:
Jesus “birthday”

Not secular at all.

It’s 98% secular. There is like 2% of it that is religious that the vast majority of people ignore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Link?

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

+1

Maybe the PP doesn’t know what secular means.

Secular:
Santa, elves, trees, songs, decorations, etc.

Religious:
Jesus “birthday”

Not secular at all.

It’s 98% secular. There is like 2% of it that is religious that the vast majority of people ignore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Link?

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

+1

Maybe the PP doesn’t know what secular means.

Secular:
Santa, elves, trees, songs, decorations, etc.

Religious:
Jesus “birthday”

Not secular at all.

It’s 98% secular. There is like 2% of it that is religious that the vast majority of people ignore.

Link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a land, live according to the way of the land, in a house, follow the way of the house.
Do not think that you can live in America and shut out everything related to Christmas,
Do not think you can live in Israel and shut out everything related to Judaism
Do not think you can live in India and shut out everything related to Hinduism

There is nothing to be offended about when the majority celebrates their national traditions

You have your own games that the majority don’t have

Is that not so?

If you live in the US, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. It also means respecting others' beliefs and culture. You want to celebrate Christmas, great, but don't expect others to.

Is there a policeman somewhere checking up on your family to see that you’re celebrating?

Yes. Not only do they make a list, but they also check it twice. Last year there was a sting operation targeting us - I heard a clatter on the roof, then they sent someone down the chimney. I hear this has been happening to lots and lots of people.