A Sincere Question about Secular Christmas

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

You understand that just because you're comfortable ignoring the religious history of Christmas doesn't mean that other people are equally willing to overlook it, right?

I didn't even slightly try to say that. Re-read my first post. Just describing how I, a non-believer enjoy the holiday and that I don't care if you choose not to. I didn't say anything about others should overlook it.

I'm not sure which of the posts in this thread is your first post, because at some point there was a DP. But the argument began with someone (maybe you?) saying that 98% of the holiday is secular and many people "just ignore" the 2% that's religious, and then the argument progressed to the fundamental question of whether or not the holiday is secular in some kind of objective way. I think it's obvious that it's not, regardless of the percentages of secular-to-religious traditions, or the number of people who celebrate it as a secular holiday now. As long as its roots are in Christianity, which is just a fact of the holiday, it can't be argued that it's not a religious holiday, particularly for those who don't come from Christian backgrounds (see the many Jewish posters who have commented).

You may celebrate it in a secular way. Maybe even the majority of people who celebrate Christmas today do so secularly. But that doesn't make the holiday itself secular.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

You understand that just because you're comfortable ignoring the religious history of Christmas doesn't mean that other people are equally willing to overlook it, right?

I didn't even slightly try to say that. Re-read my first post. Just describing how I, a non-believer enjoy the holiday and that I don't care if you choose not to. I didn't say anything about others should overlook it.

I'm not sure which of the posts in this thread is your first post, because at some point there was a DP. But the argument began with someone (maybe you?) saying that 98% of the holiday is secular and many people "just ignore" the 2% that's religious, and then the argument progressed to the fundamental question of whether or not the holiday is secular in some kind of objective way. I think it's obvious that it's not, regardless of the percentages of secular-to-religious traditions, or the number of people who celebrate it as a secular holiday now. As long as its roots are in Christianity, which is just a fact of the holiday, it can't be argued that it's not a religious holiday, particularly for those who don't come from Christian backgrounds (see the many Jewish posters who have commented).

You may celebrate it in a secular way. Maybe even the majority of people who celebrate Christmas today do so secularly. But that doesn't make the holiday itself secular.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

My mother was Christian as an adult. My father was not. My mother's parents (my grandparents) were not. I assume my great-grandparents weren't religious since I don't believe my grandmother ever went to church as a child, and she didn't marry in a church.

So I wouldn't say my "family" was Christian. More like 1 person out of 4 levels (my mom) decided to become Christian as an adult. Her attempts to raise me as Christian fell flat on my 7 yo brain and I was outspoken about not believing any of it by middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Dude you admit in your own post that certain holiday traditions have pagan roots that Christianity co-opted.

People who don’t believe in Jesus celebrate Christmas. End period. Not debatable.

Christmas in July!

Agree.

My mother tried to raise me religiously, but my earliest memory of being skeptical is age 6 or 7, and by age 12, I was claiming to not believe in a god. I wrote it in my journal which I still have, along with the date, making me around 6th grade. I'm still resolutely "not religious".

But I love decorating for Christmas. At one time I put up 17 trees. Now I'm down to 7. But I don't have any manger sets or wise men, etc.

I have German heritage so I feel that I am following the early Germans and pagans who brought greenery and candles into their house around the winter solstice.

But I have never pressured anyone to celebrate Christmas or decorate. Why would I care if they don't?

Your roots are Christian.

Well, my mother's mother (whose parents came over from Germany), was not religious and as far as I know, did not go to church as a child. Definitely never went to church as an adult, nor ever spoke of god or said blessings, etc. She was not married in a church and her wedding suit dress was black. She also didn't take my mother to church, but I think my mother went here and there with a friend. Certainly my mother was drawn to go to church by her 20s, but I think it was mainly her interest in music and she loved singing and directing choirs.

Anyway, I've never traced my roots much past my great-grandparents. I'm sure some were Christians 200-300 years ago. But if I went back over 2000 years ago, I'll bet many of those ancestors were following German and pagan traditions that later Christians co-opted to make it easier to get more people converted.

So in my view, I'm celebrating the same way some great/great/great/etc grandparent did 2100 years ago. Plus I do a lot of secular Santa, stockings, elves, cookies, etc.

Not being religious has nothing to do with heritage. Your family was Christian so it makes sense if you choose to celebrate. Santa, stockings, elves are not secular.

But they are! There is zero in the Bible or at Church about santa, stockings or elves. That's the secular part. It was appropriated from the Pagans. If something isn't secular, it's religious and santa is NOT religious. The most religious people I know are fundamentalists who don't celebrate with Santa or a tree.

[Anonymous]

Maybe it’s easier to think of things as ‘cultural christmas’ and ‘religious Christmas’. The aspects of christmas or yule that do not relate to the birth of Jesus should be considered cultural and not religious. Some predate Christianity. For example, bringing the greens, putting out stockings or shoes, lighting candles on a tree, elves, Santa, nutcrackers, pudding, roasted goose can all be considered cultural aspects. While, the baby in the manger, the crèche, the service on Christmas Eve reenacting Mary and a Joseph’s journey to Bethlehem, angels can be considered the religious part of the holiday.

[Anonymous]

I don’t get the complaint about insistence that everyone celebrates Christmas. The majority do.
My dd had to sing a dreidel song at pre school even though the class had no Jewish kids. I hear Happy Hanukkah and Happy Kwanzaa being repeated over loud speakers even after those holidays have passed just because that is what is now politically correct and even though the store is filled with shoppers who most obviously are very multicultural as in Asian, Chinese, poc, and most likely no Jewish customers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it’s easier to think of things as ‘cultural christmas’ and ‘religious Christmas’. The aspects of christmas or yule that do not relate to the birth of Jesus should be considered cultural and not religious. Some predate Christianity. For example, bringing the greens, putting out stockings or shoes, lighting candles on a tree, elves, Santa, nutcrackers, pudding, roasted goose can all be considered cultural aspects. While, the baby in the manger, the crèche, the service on Christmas Eve reenacting Mary and a Joseph’s journey to Bethlehem, angels can be considered the religious part of the holiday.

Yes, I think "cultural Christmas" and "religious Christmas" would be a better distinction. It would certainly help with the confusion over people who are now not-religious, but whose family background/heritage is Christian, to better understand how they can celebrate Christmas in a secular manner as part of their cultural heritage without insisting that people of other cultural or religious backgrounds wouldn't see it as a secular holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

We do have some dreidels that we pull out every year. Kids picked them up at a school event and we enjoy playing with them. We also put chocolate gelt in stockings.

We celebrate Diwali and Chinese New Year as well.

I don't think its right to celebrate other holidays as you are saying. Its disrespectful as are not toys.

Agreed. This is disrespectful. It's like burning incense at an altar for fun in your home because you think it's pretty.

Santa is fine for everyone to pick up. The nativity is not.

Oh man, first world problems. Play with a nativity if you want along with a dreidel and light some incense while eating chocolate chip cookies and matzo balls. Who cares? We all end up in the same place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

dunno, but some Jews might think a particular manger scene is fun in because it reminds them of a manger scene from their past - who knows?

Wut?

Yeah, they might have really liked the manger scene that a neighbor had and picked one just like it that they saw at a second hand store. They might not even know its significance, but it says "Christmas" to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is not secular no matter how you spin it. I’ve never celebrated Christmas nor my kids.

98% of Christmas is secular. Many just ignore the 2%.

Christmas isn't secular. Its a Christian practice and holiday. I don't understand how you say its secular.

DP-

Because in addition to its secular roots and history, many people celebrate it in a non-religious way. Certainly you get that, right? For example, there are dozens of popular holiday specials and only one of them mentions Jesus, and thousands of commercials and advertisements, none of which mention Jesus, and many family gatherings which (joyously) occur without mention of Jesus, either tacitly or explicitly. Tons of non-denominal decorations everywhere...

You definitely understand this, I am certain of it. Just because you might celebrate it differently, PPs point is that for many people (ok, possibly not 99% but likely the majority, I guess) celebrate it without a religious meaning.

What "secular roots and history" are you talking about? The traditions that Christianity co-opted from other sources? Decorating trees would probably not still be a thing (certainly not as widespread as it is) if Christianity hadn't adopted it into Christmas celebrations and spread it as part of the religious holiday. If anything, the roots and history of Christmas are solidly Christian, and have only grown apart from Christianity as people have dropped their religiosity (the growth of the "nones").

I'll grant you that many people who celebrate Christmas today do it without mention of Jesus or any religious aspect and think of their observance as totally secular. But you have to see how people who don't celebrate it at all (as many Jewish posters have noted) can't divorce its history and roots in Christianity from the "secular" aspects of it, right? It's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; it's about people who just don't celebrate it at all.

Maybe it's not about people who celebrate it religiously vs. those who celebrate it secularly; but the people who just don't celebrate it at all, do so for religious reasons - They're Jewish and the religious overtones to the holiday are Christian.

How would secular celebrators of Christmas feel about adding Hanukah candles to their festivities?

There are people who don’t celebrate it for religious reasons, but also people who do celebrate it irrespective of their religion, because they are celebrating it secularly.

As a secular celebrator of Christmas, I wouldn’t care about adding a menorah, et al, though I imagine Jewish people might care!

Adding dreidels or a menorah to your Christmas celebrations doesn't make it secular. It might make it multicultural, which is not the same thing. And also, let's not start lighting a menorah if you're not Jewish; that's appropriative.

I suppose that a Christian could say the same about a secular Jew having manger scene, but if they are truly secular, I disagree.

What secular Jew has a manger scene? If a secular Jew is going to do Christmas, they're going to do the fun parts, like lights and cookies.

When my daughter was 2 and going to a synagogue preschool, we took her to look at a very elaborate display of Christmas lights one night — she thought the mangers were sukkahs. But I agree, not even Jews who have a tree are likely to put up a manger.