Did anyone's kid choose quality of life/social factors over prestige?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go where you are happy. But why assume prestige schools don't offer quality of life?

It's no secret that several "prestige" schools are hyper-competitive, cut-throat places. Wasn't like that in the 90s but sure is now. The anxiety level of many of these kids is off the charts. It's real!

Hyper competitive yet the average student will graduate with a 3.8. Not fully buying it.

[Anonymous]

I think the answer, at least in our case, that both are true. Definitely hyper-competitive but also quality of life. They want to be challenged, peers are collaborative, and the competition comes from within. Certain kids thrive in that, some don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Northwestern is done. We did the accepted student day and she really did not like it. Didn't see herself there. She revisited UVA and loved it.

The issue that complicates the Penn and Columbia decisions is she hasn't visited either with students in session. We toured them briefly last summer and then toured Penn last week but just walked around Columbia with a friend of a friend (the undergrads are gone for the year and they are on a break from tours until June). It's been very hard to get a feel for the social scenes.

She wants fun mixed with strong academics. Very social kid. Traditional greek life (or so she says, as I mentioned above I'm not sure she knows what this really is).

Let her decide and stop.

OP back. Trust me. I am. This is not my first rodeo. I have older kids and as I said before in this post, she ALREADY (last month) chose UVA over more highly ranked schools. I stood by quietly when she did that. Frankly, I am becoming a freaking pro at letting her take the college decision reigns. I posted on here because I was curious about how many others have kids who chose similarly. [/quot


Actually your original post asked “what would you do?” And a later post indicated you were having trouble with her giving up a “4% admissions rate”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my kid is transferring out of a T20 for a school about 20 schools lower in the ranking pool because they want a better quality of life.

OP here. Better in what way? Can you elaborate on what their experience has been and what they hope for in their new school? Thank you!

DC ultimately felt like the culture at the school was more individualistic and scrappy. Lots of students and seemingly never enough resources. They also had a significant illness during the year which made things doubly hard, and maybe it was the luck of the draw, but they found their professors unresponsive and the TAs weren’t much better. And despite what some posters said, they didn’t get a grade below an A- so they were hacking it fine, just decided they no longer wanted to hack it in that environment and we see our kid as a whole person, not just an academic performance machine. They’re transferring to a smaller private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my kid is transferring out of a T20 for a school about 20 schools lower in the ranking pool because they want a better quality of life.

OP here. Better in what way? Can you elaborate on what their experience has been and what they hope for in their new school? Thank you!

DC ultimately felt like the culture at the school was more individualistic and scrappy. Lots of students and seemingly never enough resources. They also had a significant illness during the year which made things doubly hard, and maybe it was the luck of the draw, but they found their professors unresponsive and the TAs weren’t much better. And despite what some posters said, they didn’t get a grade below an A- so they were hacking it fine, just decided they no longer wanted to hack it in that environment and we see our kid as a whole person, not just an academic performance machine. They’re transferring to a smaller private.

I'm so curious to know which T20 school never seemed to have enough resources! The stuff about the out-of-touch professors and TAs I would expect, but I'd think the T20 would have all have resources in abundance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to reiterate that UVA rush is going to be very competitive for an oos girl, and rush at Penn less so. I was rush director at my sorority decades ago and am shocked at how much rush is different than I experienced. At UVA, very superficial things that she has little control over, like the high school she attended, will matter (strong preference for private schools and feeder affluent public schools) as well as how much she fits a sorority’s type in terms the way she dresses and looks.

Parent of two daughters who graduated from NOVA public high schools who attended UVA and who both rushed. Neither had any problem getting the bids that they wanted.

Assuming that OP’s daughter has half the personality and likeability that OP says she has, she will have no trouble rushing at UVA.

Your dds are probably at sororities with lots of other girls from their high schools. It’s a lot harder for oos girls.

Wrong. Both of my daughters’ sororities were full of OOS “girls” and not a single one of them were from their same high school. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

I know oos girls who were very social who were shut out of the top tier sororities at UVA. Perhaps we just are coming at it from different perspectives, or your dd’s were willing to go beyond the “top” sororities (which I think is great, but many girls aren’t).

It would be a shame to chose UVA predominantly for its Greek life and not have it work out. I’ve seen this happen to girls at many southern schools.

Ha ha ha, now I get it. You are suggesting that it only it’s worth rushing if you can get into one of the so-called “top“ sororities, and you’re suggesting that OP‘s daughter can’t do that.

Do you really think that there aren’t social tiers at the Ivies? Are you really saying that OP’s daughter can’t make it socially at UVA being from out of state, but can just swoop into the top of the social scene/tier at Penn and Columbia? What a joke.

Ivies do not have the same "tiers" and social structure as UVA and other southern publics. Theyre completely different with more room for more variety of women socially, yet the ivies do carry an expectation that everyone go above and beyond: classes, clubs, research, outreach.... it is constant focus on the next step, though tbf that is no different than hopkins and stanford. That culture leads to the high success rate of graduates. Almost everyone is super-bright, quirky/nerdy kids are more accepted, academics are especially lauded, yet coasting is frowned upon. UVA is less intense academically, yet more intense socially (albeit not as tiered socially as SMU, Tulane, Auburn...)

Well, I don’t know anything about the Ivy social scene other than that Princeton has some exclusive eating clubs, but I have to figure that there are some pretty rich and connected students attending most of them and that some of them are living some pretty extraordinary and exclusive social lives that don’t typically include the masses. I doubt that as a practical matter UVA is any different.

The bottom line is that UVA is not so stratified socially that you’re doomed to a miserable four years unless you’re a member of a “top” sorority. Were that the case, the vast majority of UVA students would be miserable, which clearly isn’t the case considering that virtually no one transfers and nearly everyone graduates.

Yes, there will always be clubs that won’t have you as a member, but that’s a universal truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Life is too short to value prestige over happiness. No one on their deathbed laments, "wish I had picked a higher ranked college with the lower acceptance rate." Way more people regret not having been true to themselves vs. other people's expectations.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3377309/

You do realize attending elite/ivies IS being true to oneself for many students, right?
Mine both picked different ivies and are very glad they did. They picked for FIT. They finally feel as though they can be themselves, and new friends have stated similar sentiments. The high expectations of the peers drives them forward in their endeavors. They find it invigorating and freeing, as do the majority of their peers. They are continually astounded by the opportunities at every turn. No school is perfect but they have several friends (from HS) unhappy at UVA and W&L who did not get into top schools and feel as though they are not in the right-fit place. Most tried transferring to ivies or WAS and still did not make it in.

Considering that over 97% of UVA first years return for the second year and that it has the highest retention rate and four year graduation rate among any public school in the country, you and your friends must know everybody who tried to transfer. I guess miserable people attract each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my kid is transferring out of a T20 for a school about 20 schools lower in the ranking pool because they want a better quality of life.

OP here. Better in what way? Can you elaborate on what their experience has been and what they hope for in their new school? Thank you!

DC ultimately felt like the culture at the school was more individualistic and scrappy. Lots of students and seemingly never enough resources. They also had a significant illness during the year which made things doubly hard, and maybe it was the luck of the draw, but they found their professors unresponsive and the TAs weren’t much better. And despite what some posters said, they didn’t get a grade below an A- so they were hacking it fine, just decided they no longer wanted to hack it in that environment and we see our kid as a whole person, not just an academic performance machine. They’re transferring to a smaller private.

Public or private?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go where you are happy. But why assume prestige schools don't offer quality of life?

It's no secret that several "prestige" schools are hyper-competitive, cut-throat places. Wasn't like that in the 90s but sure is now. The anxiety level of many of these kids is off the charts. It's real!

Hyper competitive yet the average student will graduate with a 3.8. Not fully buying it.

Hyper competition is a way of life for some kids, regardless of how plentiful and well-distributed the rewards (including a 3.8 gpa).

If the average is a 3.8, this cohort will battle each other for the 3.95 or 4.0 - it’s just who they are and how they do things. Huge focus on external markers of success, relative to their environment, not necessarily common sense. “Average” is not good enough for them, even if technically, it is.

We all know kids like that in our DCs’ high schools. Put them all together in a single college setting, and it can be miserable for kids who are not like that.

The more chill kids who seek a broader college experience and are fine with their 3.8 are not going to find much social or emotional connection or community with the gunners who don’t have that same perspective.

I know this because my high school DC is the former type (it’s all relative … 3.98 and “only” 11 APs instead of 15). They have absolutely nothing in common socially/personally with that cohort of kids, other than the fact that learning and school comes very easily to them. DC would be MISERABLE at a college where they’re the kids who set the vibe, even if DC knew they could pretty easily graduate with a 3.8 ….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to reiterate that UVA rush is going to be very competitive for an oos girl, and rush at Penn less so. I was rush director at my sorority decades ago and am shocked at how much rush is different than I experienced. At UVA, very superficial things that she has little control over, like the high school she attended, will matter (strong preference for private schools and feeder affluent public schools) as well as how much she fits a sorority’s type in terms the way she dresses and looks.

Parent of two daughters who graduated from NOVA public high schools who attended UVA and who both rushed. Neither had any problem getting the bids that they wanted.

Assuming that OP’s daughter has half the personality and likeability that OP says she has, she will have no trouble rushing at UVA.

Your dds are probably at sororities with lots of other girls from their high schools. It’s a lot harder for oos girls.

Wrong. Both of my daughters’ sororities were full of OOS “girls” and not a single one of them were from their same high school. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

I know oos girls who were very social who were shut out of the top tier sororities at UVA. Perhaps we just are coming at it from different perspectives, or your dd’s were willing to go beyond the “top” sororities (which I think is great, but many girls aren’t).

It would be a shame to chose UVA predominantly for its Greek life and not have it work out. I’ve seen this happen to girls at many southern schools.

Ha ha ha, now I get it. You are suggesting that it only it’s worth rushing if you can get into one of the so-called “top“ sororities, and you’re suggesting that OP‘s daughter can’t do that.

Do you really think that there aren’t social tiers at the Ivies? Are you really saying that OP’s daughter can’t make it socially at UVA being from out of state, but can just swoop into the top of the social scene/tier at Penn and Columbia? What a joke.

Ivies do not have the same "tiers" and social structure as UVA and other southern publics. Theyre completely different with more room for more variety of women socially, yet the ivies do carry an expectation that everyone go above and beyond: classes, clubs, research, outreach.... it is constant focus on the next step, though tbf that is no different than hopkins and stanford. That culture leads to the high success rate of graduates. Almost everyone is super-bright, quirky/nerdy kids are more accepted, academics are especially lauded, yet coasting is frowned upon. UVA is less intense academically, yet more intense socially (albeit not as tiered socially as SMU, Tulane, Auburn...)

Well, I don’t know anything about the Ivy social scene other than that Princeton has some exclusive eating clubs, but I have to figure that there are some pretty rich and connected students attending most of them and that some of them are living some pretty extraordinary and exclusive social lives that don’t typically include the masses. I doubt that as a practical matter UVA is any different.

The bottom line is that UVA is not so stratified socially that you’re doomed to a miserable four years unless you’re a member of a “top” sorority. Were that the case, the vast majority of UVA students would be miserable, which clearly isn’t the case considering that virtually no one transfers and nearly everyone graduates.

Yes, there will always be clubs that won’t have you as a member, but that’s a universal truth.

And this is the problem with dcum. You were responding to me, and I went to Penn and know a current sophomore who rushed. Also know kids currently at UVA who are from OOS. The Penn Greek scene is nothing like the eating clubs at Princeton or Finals clubs at Harvard.

Further, you missed the point entirely. For many kids, including my own, it’s top tier or they drop. Op should have her daughter consider whether she would still be picking uva if rush doesn’t go perfectly. Sometimes 18 year olds make great decisions and sometimes they make bad ones chasing some TikTok ideal of what college life should be like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go where you are happy. But why assume prestige schools don't offer quality of life?

It's no secret that several "prestige" schools are hyper-competitive, cut-throat places. Wasn't like that in the 90s but sure is now. The anxiety level of many of these kids is off the charts. It's real!

Hyper competitive yet the average student will graduate with a 3.8. Not fully buying it.

If you’re all gunning for the same top internships and clubs on campus, that makes it even worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to reiterate that UVA rush is going to be very competitive for an oos girl, and rush at Penn less so. I was rush director at my sorority decades ago and am shocked at how much rush is different than I experienced. At UVA, very superficial things that she has little control over, like the high school she attended, will matter (strong preference for private schools and feeder affluent public schools) as well as how much she fits a sorority’s type in terms the way she dresses and looks.

Parent of two daughters who graduated from NOVA public high schools who attended UVA and who both rushed. Neither had any problem getting the bids that they wanted.

Assuming that OP’s daughter has half the personality and likeability that OP says she has, she will have no trouble rushing at UVA.

Your dds are probably at sororities with lots of other girls from their high schools. It’s a lot harder for oos girls.

Wrong. Both of my daughters’ sororities were full of OOS “girls” and not a single one of them were from their same high school. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

I know oos girls who were very social who were shut out of the top tier sororities at UVA. Perhaps we just are coming at it from different perspectives, or your dd’s were willing to go beyond the “top” sororities (which I think is great, but many girls aren’t).

It would be a shame to chose UVA predominantly for its Greek life and not have it work out. I’ve seen this happen to girls at many southern schools.

Ha ha ha, now I get it. You are suggesting that it only it’s worth rushing if you can get into one of the so-called “top“ sororities, and you’re suggesting that OP‘s daughter can’t do that.

Do you really think that there aren’t social tiers at the Ivies? Are you really saying that OP’s daughter can’t make it socially at UVA being from out of state, but can just swoop into the top of the social scene/tier at Penn and Columbia? What a joke.

Ivies do not have the same "tiers" and social structure as UVA and other southern publics. Theyre completely different with more room for more variety of women socially, yet the ivies do carry an expectation that everyone go above and beyond: classes, clubs, research, outreach.... it is constant focus on the next step, though tbf that is no different than hopkins and stanford. That culture leads to the high success rate of graduates. Almost everyone is super-bright, quirky/nerdy kids are more accepted, academics are especially lauded, yet coasting is frowned upon. UVA is less intense academically, yet more intense socially (albeit not as tiered socially as SMU, Tulane, Auburn...)

Well, I don’t know anything about the Ivy social scene other than that Princeton has some exclusive eating clubs, but I have to figure that there are some pretty rich and connected students attending most of them and that some of them are living some pretty extraordinary and exclusive social lives that don’t typically include the masses. I doubt that as a practical matter UVA is any different.

The bottom line is that UVA is not so stratified socially that you’re doomed to a miserable four years unless you’re a member of a “top” sorority. Were that the case, the vast majority of UVA students would be miserable, which clearly isn’t the case considering that virtually no one transfers and nearly everyone graduates.

Yes, there will always be clubs that won’t have you as a member, but that’s a universal truth.

And this is the problem with dcum. You were responding to me, and I went to Penn and know a current sophomore who rushed. Also know kids currently at UVA who are from OOS. The Penn Greek scene is nothing like the eating clubs at Princeton or Finals clubs at Harvard.

Further, you missed the point entirely. For many kids, including my own, it’s top tier or they drop. Op should have her daughter consider whether she would still be picking uva if rush doesn’t go perfectly. Sometimes 18 year olds make great decisions and sometimes they make bad ones chasing some TikTok ideal of what college life should be like.

Oh, I get it now. You know a lot about Penn but your only personal experience with UVA is cryptically “knowing kids currently at UVA from OOS.”

I, on the other hand, have two actual children who attended UVA, both of whom rushed, and both of them count among their best personal friends from their sororities very happy women who are from out of state.

Again, there is nothing in OP’s description of her daughter‘s personality that suggests in any way that if she goes to UVA and doesn’t get into the top sorority in the school - which, by the way, isn’t even the given that you assume it will be - she will be miserable.

You also say that “for many kids, including my own, it’s only top-tier or they drop.“ Honestly, from the description of OP’s kid, she’s less superficial and insecure than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go where you are happy. But why assume prestige schools don't offer quality of life?

It's no secret that several "prestige" schools are hyper-competitive, cut-throat places. Wasn't like that in the 90s but sure is now. The anxiety level of many of these kids is off the charts. It's real!

Hyper competitive yet the average student will graduate with a 3.8. Not fully buying it.

Hyper competition is a way of life for some kids, regardless of how plentiful and well-distributed the rewards (including a 3.8 gpa).

If the average is a 3.8, this cohort will battle each other for the 3.95 or 4.0 - it’s just who they are and how they do things. Huge focus on external markers of success, relative to their environment, not necessarily common sense. “Average” is not good enough for them, even if technically, it is.

We all know kids like that in our DCs’ high schools. Put them all together in a single college setting, and it can be miserable for kids who are not like that.

The more chill kids who seek a broader college experience and are fine with their 3.8 are not going to find much social or emotional connection or community with the gunners who don’t have that same perspective.

I know this because my high school DC is the former type (it’s all relative … 3.98 and “only” 11 APs instead of 15). They have absolutely nothing in common socially/personally with that cohort of kids, other than the fact that learning and school comes very easily to them. DC would be MISERABLE at a college where they’re the kids who set the vibe, even if DC knew they could pretty easily graduate with a 3.8 ….

OP here. Thank you for this very thoughtful post. I think it accurately depicts my daughter. She inserted herself into the 3.98+ gunner game through high school but it's not really who she is at her core or how she thrives. She is leaving high school a bit scarred and exhausted. Certainly not energized. I have no doubt that she will do what is expected of her at the next level. If she was to go to MIT she'd contort herself into that world too---and do whatever homework was needed, join her classmates in competing for XYZ research opportunities, clubs, etc. But I really don't think it's where she's happiest. Frankly, I don't think it (this hypercompeitive world in elite academics) is the best fit for most of the kids who find themselves there. It is for some--no doubt. They would be bored and unhappy with anything less. But not all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my DC chose UMD over Michigan and Georgia Tech. No regrets.

Nor should there be. It and UMich are mutual peers and I'd say is generally more prestigious than GT to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to reiterate that UVA rush is going to be very competitive for an oos girl, and rush at Penn less so. I was rush director at my sorority decades ago and am shocked at how much rush is different than I experienced. At UVA, very superficial things that she has little control over, like the high school she attended, will matter (strong preference for private schools and feeder affluent public schools) as well as how much she fits a sorority’s type in terms the way she dresses and looks.

Parent of two daughters who graduated from NOVA public high schools who attended UVA and who both rushed. Neither had any problem getting the bids that they wanted.

Assuming that OP’s daughter has half the personality and likeability that OP says she has, she will have no trouble rushing at UVA.

Your dds are probably at sororities with lots of other girls from their high schools. It’s a lot harder for oos girls.

Wrong. Both of my daughters’ sororities were full of OOS “girls” and not a single one of them were from their same high school. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

I know oos girls who were very social who were shut out of the top tier sororities at UVA. Perhaps we just are coming at it from different perspectives, or your dd’s were willing to go beyond the “top” sororities (which I think is great, but many girls aren’t).

It would be a shame to chose UVA predominantly for its Greek life and not have it work out. I’ve seen this happen to girls at many southern schools.

Ha ha ha, now I get it. You are suggesting that it only it’s worth rushing if you can get into one of the so-called “top“ sororities, and you’re suggesting that OP‘s daughter can’t do that.

Do you really think that there aren’t social tiers at the Ivies? Are you really saying that OP’s daughter can’t make it socially at UVA being from out of state, but can just swoop into the top of the social scene/tier at Penn and Columbia? What a joke.

Ivies do not have the same "tiers" and social structure as UVA and other southern publics. Theyre completely different with more room for more variety of women socially, yet the ivies do carry an expectation that everyone go above and beyond: classes, clubs, research, outreach.... it is constant focus on the next step, though tbf that is no different than hopkins and stanford. That culture leads to the high success rate of graduates. Almost everyone is super-bright, quirky/nerdy kids are more accepted, academics are especially lauded, yet coasting is frowned upon. UVA is less intense academically, yet more intense socially (albeit not as tiered socially as SMU, Tulane, Auburn...)

Well, I don’t know anything about the Ivy social scene other than that Princeton has some exclusive eating clubs, but I have to figure that there are some pretty rich and connected students attending most of them and that some of them are living some pretty extraordinary and exclusive social lives that don’t typically include the masses. I doubt that as a practical matter UVA is any different.

The bottom line is that UVA is not so stratified socially that you’re doomed to a miserable four years unless you’re a member of a “top” sorority. Were that the case, the vast majority of UVA students would be miserable, which clearly isn’t the case considering that virtually no one transfers and nearly everyone graduates.

Yes, there will always be clubs that won’t have you as a member, but that’s a universal truth.

And this is the problem with dcum. You were responding to me, and I went to Penn and know a current sophomore who rushed. Also know kids currently at UVA who are from OOS. The Penn Greek scene is nothing like the eating clubs at Princeton or Finals clubs at Harvard.

Further, you missed the point entirely. For many kids, including my own, it’s top tier or they drop. Op should have her daughter consider whether she would still be picking uva if rush doesn’t go perfectly. Sometimes 18 year olds make great decisions and sometimes they make bad ones chasing some TikTok ideal of what college life should be like.

Oh, I get it now. You know a lot about Penn but your only personal experience with UVA is cryptically “knowing kids currently at UVA from OOS.”

I, on the other hand, have two actual children who attended UVA, both of whom rushed, and both of them count among their best personal friends from their sororities very happy women who are from out of state.

Again, there is nothing in OP’s description of her daughter‘s personality that suggests in any way that if she goes to UVA and doesn’t get into the top sorority in the school - which, by the way, isn’t even the given that you assume it will be - she will be miserable.

You also say that “for many kids, including my own, it’s only top-tier or they drop.“ Honestly, from the description of OP’s kid, she’s less superficial and insecure than that.

I’m glad your dds had a good experience. When did your dds graduate? Plenty of unhappiness and complaints about rush at UVA in this thread from this January (UVA specific posts mostly in second half of thread). https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1250019.page