How do you know if a breeder is really a puppy mill?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/dog-auction-rescue-groups-donations/

“An effort that animal rescuers began more than a decade ago to buy dogs for $5 or $10 apiece from commercial breeders has become a nationwide shadow market that today sees some rescuers, fueled by Internet fundraising, paying breeders $5,000 or more for a single dog.

The result is a river of rescue donations flowing from avowed dog saviors to the breeders, two groups that have long disparaged each other. The rescuers call many breeders heartless operators of inhumane “puppy mills” and work to ban the sale of their dogs in brick-and-mortar pet stores. The breeders call “retail rescuers” hypocritical dilettantes who hide behind nonprofit status while doing business as unregulated, online pet stores.

But for years, they have come together at dog auctions where no cameras are allowed, with rescuers enriching breeders and some breeders saying more puppies are being bred for sale to the rescuers.

Bidders affiliated with 86 rescue and advocacy groups and shelters throughout the United States and Canada have spent $2.68 million buying 5,761 dogs and puppies from breeders since 2009 at the nation’s two government-regulated dog auctions, both in Missouri, according to invoices, checks and other documents The Washington Post obtained from an industry insider.”

But even if a rescue is not doing this, they are shipping tons of irresponsibly bred pit and hound mix puppies, mostly, from the South all the time to be “adopted” up here. Once you’ve created a pipeline like that, what is the incentive for southern states to prevent the breeding of those puppies? Why would they make any policy changes?

At the same time, they’re telling people not to buy dogs from breeders. But they’re not articulating any sort of plan for how people should acquire pets if the southern states got their acts together. And the reputable breeders aren’t doing anything to help people find them, in fact they seem determined to make it as hard as possible.

Anything more recent on the topic? Or maybe you can name any of the local rescues that part of that group of 86?

I got my wonderful dog from Lucky Dog, in recent years. They had like 20 pit mix puppies outside a petsmart and they were touting their facility in SC. And listen, I like dogs! I like rescues! But it makes no sense to me to say Amish puppies are unethical but a pipeline of pit bull puppies from SC is virtuous just because one is a business and one is a non-profit, unless the non-profit sees the 20 pitbulls outside a Petsmart as a temporary, necessary, problematic stop gap on the way to a more sustainable system to generate healthy pets. But I see no evidence that they see it that way.

It seems like there are just a bunch of pit bulls who haven’t been spayed or neutered. They multiply unfettered and there’s such an oversupply, there aren’t enough buyers for that many puppies. They proliferate because their owners aren’t incentivized to prevent it from happening.

However, the Amish are breeding their dogs on purpose for a profit. Both the pit bulls owners and the Amish are responsible for unethical breeding, but the Amish would stop if they weren’t turning a profit. If people didn’t buy from Amish puppy mills, there wouldn’t be any.

This, +100
Meanwhile, rescues like Lucky dogs don't provide any incentives to unethical/irresponsible/accidental pitbull breeders, moreover they fund/promote spaying/neutering of household pets. If people stopped adopting from rescues - it would not affect actions of the stupid people who simply don't neuter their pets.

But having a pipeline of pit bull puppies to the northeast relieves pressure on the southern states to deal with the problem. What’s the incentive to reduce the number of puppies when they get swept off to be family pets?

The south has a way to reduce the number of excess dogs, but bleeding hearts don’t like it. People from up north arranged to have the dogs shipped up here because the solution in the south was to euthanize excess dogs they couldn’t adopt out.

I’ve often thought they should just pay people in the south cash on the barrel to get their dogs fixed. I’ve stopped donating to the shelters around here but would donate to a group that just pays people to spay/neuter their dogs in the south.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

no, they're non-profits. and they don't breed the animals, they take the ones that someone else has bred and doesnt' want to take care of. the more you buy from a breeder or a pet store, the more they'll breed.

the more unfixed stray dogs or unwanted dogs the rescue takes off the street, the fewer unwanted dogs there are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

Interesting how they cherry pick such a wide range of dogs, in terms of age, medical condition, and temperament.

But I’m intrigued to hear more - what does the nonprofit rescue get out of picking some dogs to adopt but not others? And are the cherry picked dogs in need of a home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

Interesting how they cherry pick such a wide range of dogs, in terms of age, medical condition, and temperament.

But I’m intrigued to hear more - what does the nonprofit rescue get out of picking some dogs to adopt but not others? And are the cherry picked dogs in need of a home?

They are cherry-pickig dogs that can be adopted fast (or at least have enough interests from fosters to keep them out of shelters). I see that looking at the lists of adoptable dogs at local rescues that ship dogs from the South - mostly puppies and young dogs under 3 yo for large-breed dogs; older dogs are mostly close to purebred (I've seen GSD, rotties, poodles, coonhounds, etc), and small dogs of almost all ages.
Older pits or unknown mutts over 50 lbs are rare guests, and most of the times were previously adopted as pups/young dogs and them returned.
So, yeah, rescues do triage too, they don't have unlimited resources to save all or keep dogs forever, especially if rescue is mainly foster-based.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

Only true for pretty crap breeders. We had to do a credit check and virtual home visit including showing that we had purchased a crate, toys, games, etc and that our home was set up for a dog. Had to provide proof of employment and income and a sample "day in the life" for our puppy including Google map routes showing possible walks and local parks. Additionally agreed to their spay/neuter schedule and showed we had a vet lined up. We had to submit all vaccination records for the first year of life. They also required we return the dog if at any point we needed to surrender (never!) As all decent breeders do. Good breeders do kind of make you work for it and don't have a, "who cares where they end up?" Attitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

Only true for pretty crap breeders. We had to do a credit check and virtual home visit including showing that we had purchased a crate, toys, games, etc and that our home was set up for a dog. Had to provide proof of employment and income and a sample "day in the life" for our puppy including Google map routes showing possible walks and local parks. Additionally agreed to their spay/neuter schedule and showed we had a vet lined up. We had to submit all vaccination records for the first year of life. They also required we return the dog if at any point we needed to surrender (never!) As all decent breeders do. Good breeders do kind of make you work for it and don't have a, "who cares where they end up?" Attitude.

Yes, that's all signs of a good breeder (and I bet they charge more that $500 for a puppy)
You get what you paid for as always

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

Only true for pretty crap breeders. We had to do a credit check and virtual home visit including showing that we had purchased a crate, toys, games, etc and that our home was set up for a dog. Had to provide proof of employment and income and a sample "day in the life" for our puppy including Google map routes showing possible walks and local parks. Additionally agreed to their spay/neuter schedule and showed we had a vet lined up. We had to submit all vaccination records for the first year of life. They also required we return the dog if at any point we needed to surrender (never!) As all decent breeders do. Good breeders do kind of make you work for it and don't have a, "who cares where they end up?" Attitude.

Yes, that's all signs of a good breeder (and I bet they charge more that $500 for a puppy)
You get what you paid for as always

3k but 7 years in and no significant vet bills; every vet has said something along the lines of, "this is such a well bred dog." The initial cost is such a drop in the bucket. If you're going the breeder route, you shouldn't be penny wise and pound foolish. No puppy mills, they're terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

Only true for pretty crap breeders. We had to do a credit check and virtual home visit including showing that we had purchased a crate, toys, games, etc and that our home was set up for a dog. Had to provide proof of employment and income and a sample "day in the life" for our puppy including Google map routes showing possible walks and local parks. Additionally agreed to their spay/neuter schedule and showed we had a vet lined up. We had to submit all vaccination records for the first year of life. They also required we return the dog if at any point we needed to surrender (never!) As all decent breeders do. Good breeders do kind of make you work for it and don't have a, "who cares where they end up?" Attitude.

Yes, that's all signs of a good breeder (and I bet they charge more that $500 for a puppy)
You get what you paid for as always

3k but 7 years in and no significant vet bills; every vet has said something along the lines of, "this is such a well bred dog." The initial cost is such a drop in the bucket. If you're going the breeder route, you shouldn't be penny wise and pound foolish. No puppy mills, they're terrible.

Yes, I know that, thank you for confirming.
My thoughts exactly - good breeders care about their dogs; puppy mills - don't
This particular conversation was about difference between not-so-ethical breeders/puppy mills and rescues since other charge about the same - $500-700 for a pup.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

Interesting how they cherry pick such a wide range of dogs, in terms of age, medical condition, and temperament.

But I’m intrigued to hear more - what does the nonprofit rescue get out of picking some dogs to adopt but not others? And are the cherry picked dogs in need of a home?

They are cherry-pickig dogs that can be adopted fast (or at least have enough interests from fosters to keep them out of shelters). I see that looking at the lists of adoptable dogs at local rescues that ship dogs from the South - mostly puppies and young dogs under 3 yo for large-breed dogs; older dogs are mostly close to purebred (I've seen GSD, rotties, poodles, coonhounds, etc), and small dogs of almost all ages.
Older pits or unknown mutts over 50 lbs are rare guests, and most of the times were previously adopted as pups/young dogs and them returned.
So, yeah, rescues do triage too, they don't have unlimited resources to save all or keep dogs forever, especially if rescue is mainly foster-based.

So, basically you're saying that rescues don't rescue EVERY dog... okay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

Only true for pretty crap breeders. We had to do a credit check and virtual home visit including showing that we had purchased a crate, toys, games, etc and that our home was set up for a dog. Had to provide proof of employment and income and a sample "day in the life" for our puppy including Google map routes showing possible walks and local parks. Additionally agreed to their spay/neuter schedule and showed we had a vet lined up. We had to submit all vaccination records for the first year of life. They also required we return the dog if at any point we needed to surrender (never!) As all decent breeders do. Good breeders do kind of make you work for it and don't have a, "who cares where they end up?" Attitude.

i guess that woudl qualify as a credible breeder and not a puppy mill... but what do you think the breeder is going to do with a 5 year old, neutered dog with behavior problems that someone decides they don't want or the owner dies?

best case scenario: turn it over to a rescue

[Anonymous]

I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?