How do you know if a breeder is really a puppy mill?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

Sales have a goal of turning a profit or at least breaking even. Rescues have to have fundraisers because the adoption fees don’t cover all of their expenses, even for all the healthy, adoptable dogs. When there’s a dog with special medical needs, they don’t pass the cost of the medical treatment on to the adopters, and they don’t adopt the dog out until it’s medically stable. Rescues raise funds to cover expensive surgeries that adopters wouldn’t consider paying for. They’ll pay to treat medical conditions that occurred when the dog wasn’t even under their care.

Breeders are only paying for medical expenses for the first 8-12 weeks of puppies’ lives. They’re not spaying and neutering pups and having their teeth cleaned. They’re generally not paying for x-rays or ultrasounds or surgeries. They don’t cover the costs of treating the medical issues that arose from someone else’s neglect and abuse of animals.

Also breeders profit from more dogs, and where the dogs end up isn’t their problem. Nonprofit rescues are actively reducing the number of dogs by spaying and neutering and many of them will take dogs back if they don’t work out.

Only true for pretty crap breeders. We had to do a credit check and virtual home visit including showing that we had purchased a crate, toys, games, etc and that our home was set up for a dog. Had to provide proof of employment and income and a sample "day in the life" for our puppy including Google map routes showing possible walks and local parks. Additionally agreed to their spay/neuter schedule and showed we had a vet lined up. We had to submit all vaccination records for the first year of life. They also required we return the dog if at any point we needed to surrender (never!) As all decent breeders do. Good breeders do kind of make you work for it and don't have a, "who cares where they end up?" Attitude.

Yes, that's all signs of a good breeder (and I bet they charge more that $500 for a puppy)
You get what you paid for as always

3k but 7 years in and no significant vet bills; every vet has said something along the lines of, "this is such a well bred dog." The initial cost is such a drop in the bucket. If you're going the breeder route, you shouldn't be penny wise and pound foolish. No puppy mills, they're terrible.

Yes, I know that, thank you for confirming.
My thoughts exactly - good breeders care about their dogs; puppy mills - don't
This particular conversation was about difference between not-so-ethical breeders/puppy mills and rescues since other charge about the same - $500-700 for a pup.

but at the end of the day a breeder is still in it for the money and profits from more dogs and while maybe willing to take back a dog, doesn't want to and is not in the business of caring for unloved dogs.

i had good luck with breed specific rescues -- you can get a perfect breed standard basset or whatever from a breed-specific rescue, which is run by people who care deeply about a particular breed and making sure they're all homed. we had a wonderful basset that could've been shown he fit the breed standard so well, he just couldn't hunt so some yokel down south put him on the street. cost me a $250 tax deductible donation. why would i ever go to a breeder when I could do that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

Interesting how they cherry pick such a wide range of dogs, in terms of age, medical condition, and temperament.

But I’m intrigued to hear more - what does the nonprofit rescue get out of picking some dogs to adopt but not others? And are the cherry picked dogs in need of a home?

They are cherry-pickig dogs that can be adopted fast (or at least have enough interests from fosters to keep them out of shelters). I see that looking at the lists of adoptable dogs at local rescues that ship dogs from the South - mostly puppies and young dogs under 3 yo for large-breed dogs; older dogs are mostly close to purebred (I've seen GSD, rotties, poodles, coonhounds, etc), and small dogs of almost all ages.
Older pits or unknown mutts over 50 lbs are rare guests, and most of the times were previously adopted as pups/young dogs and them returned.
So, yeah, rescues do triage too, they don't have unlimited resources to save all or keep dogs forever, especially if rescue is mainly foster-based.

So, basically you're saying that rescues don't rescue EVERY dog... okay?

Yes, they don't save every dog. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try at all or they're "dog re-sellers" that encourage puppy mills as some of the PPs suggested

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

so... your theory is that someone is rescuing hundreds of dogs so they can write off their home mortgage?

there are a lot easier ways to write your home off as a business expense than collecting unloved, un-house-trained mutts from around the country and making sure they get a forever home.

like, for instance, operating a puppy mill.

seriously... if you have the idea that you can use unloved dogs to get rich via tax deductions on your home (someone get an accountant to explain that logic), it's much easier to breed puppies than rescue dogs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

Interesting how they cherry pick such a wide range of dogs, in terms of age, medical condition, and temperament.

But I’m intrigued to hear more - what does the nonprofit rescue get out of picking some dogs to adopt but not others? And are the cherry picked dogs in need of a home?

They are cherry-pickig dogs that can be adopted fast (or at least have enough interests from fosters to keep them out of shelters). I see that looking at the lists of adoptable dogs at local rescues that ship dogs from the South - mostly puppies and young dogs under 3 yo for large-breed dogs; older dogs are mostly close to purebred (I've seen GSD, rotties, poodles, coonhounds, etc), and small dogs of almost all ages.
Older pits or unknown mutts over 50 lbs are rare guests, and most of the times were previously adopted as pups/young dogs and them returned.
So, yeah, rescues do triage too, they don't have unlimited resources to save all or keep dogs forever, especially if rescue is mainly foster-based.

So, basically you're saying that rescues don't rescue EVERY dog... okay?

Yes, they don't save every dog. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try at all or they're "dog re-sellers" that encourage puppy mills as some of the PPs suggested

and rescuing SOME dogs is better than breeding MORE dogs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone is willing to sell you a dog … it’s probably a puppy mill.

And never, ever buy a doodle of any kind. It’s just a mutt.

Rescues and shelters sell the animals.

Rescues are non profits. They charge an adoption fee that serves two purposes: recouping some of the money they’ve spent on veterinary care, dog food and other expenses, and making sure you’re a serious adopter (not buying the dog to use as bait for dog fighting, you probably have money to cover regular veterinary care). They make sure dogs are healthy, groomed, dewormed, up to date on shots, and spayed or neutered if they’re old enough. The rescue I adopted from incurred all of those expenses for my dog, plus a dental exam and cleaning. The neutering alone was more than $400. The adoption fee was only $350.

So, basically the same expenses as breeders. That is still selling them. They cherry pick dogs they know they can resell.

no?

also, the key difference is they don't generate more dogs. they reduce the number of available dogs.

Yes and no. They aren't the ones breeding animals but they are the ones out there shipping in "adoptable" dogs from Puerto Rico when the shelters are full here. They are often ones that help breeders who have "unsellable" dogs become "adoptable" dogs with only a small profit discount. Breeders can absolutely also be rescues. It's a tangled web these days. Unless you are adopting a pit bull from a city shelter, odds are the dog has been cherry picked to be "adoptable".

Interesting how they cherry pick such a wide range of dogs, in terms of age, medical condition, and temperament.

But I’m intrigued to hear more - what does the nonprofit rescue get out of picking some dogs to adopt but not others? And are the cherry picked dogs in need of a home?

They are cherry-pickig dogs that can be adopted fast (or at least have enough interests from fosters to keep them out of shelters). I see that looking at the lists of adoptable dogs at local rescues that ship dogs from the South - mostly puppies and young dogs under 3 yo for large-breed dogs; older dogs are mostly close to purebred (I've seen GSD, rotties, poodles, coonhounds, etc), and small dogs of almost all ages.
Older pits or unknown mutts over 50 lbs are rare guests, and most of the times were previously adopted as pups/young dogs and them returned.
So, yeah, rescues do triage too, they don't have unlimited resources to save all or keep dogs forever, especially if rescue is mainly foster-based.

So, basically you're saying that rescues don't rescue EVERY dog... okay?

Yes, they don't save every dog. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try at all or they're "dog re-sellers" that encourage puppy mills as some of the PPs suggested

and rescuing SOME dogs is better than breeding MORE dogs.

Absolutely!
Signed,
Foster, currently have 3 foster dogs from the South in my care

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

Step 1: spend lots of money and time collecting dogs without homes
Step 2: spend lots of money and time neutering/spaying those dogs and giving them basic veterinary care
Step 3: spend lots of money transporting those dogs, publicizing those dogs and screening applicants for those dogs
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

Step 1: spend lots of money and time collecting dogs without homes
Step 2: spend lots of money and time neutering/spaying those dogs and giving them basic veterinary care
Step 3: spend lots of money transporting those dogs, publicizing those dogs and screening applicants for those dogs
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit!

1. Ask for donations.
2. Request more donations or don’t spay/neuter and have the adoptee pay.
3. More fundraising
4. Ask for donations of food and supplies. (That’s what you forgot)
5. I get to write off my house and my farm!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

Step 1: spend lots of money and time collecting dogs without homes
Step 2: spend lots of money and time neutering/spaying those dogs and giving them basic veterinary care
Step 3: spend lots of money transporting those dogs, publicizing those dogs and screening applicants for those dogs
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit!

1. Ask for donations.
2. Request more donations or don’t spay/neuter and have the adoptee pay.
3. More fundraising
4. Ask for donations of food and supplies. (That’s what you forgot)
5. I get to write off my house and my farm!

Bolded won't fly:
- keeping unaltered dogs of unknown age is risky, might end up with unwanted puppies and extra vet bills
- unaltered male dogs (especially pits)in shelter/boarding is a recipe for disaster (fights -> more vet bills & possible legal issues for injury)
- finding fosters would be a problem as well, see p.2

Oh, and good luck asking for donations claiming you're saving unwanted doggies while not neutering sexually mature animals

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

No, it’s a business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

Step 1: spend lots of money and time collecting dogs without homes
Step 2: spend lots of money and time neutering/spaying those dogs and giving them basic veterinary care
Step 3: spend lots of money transporting those dogs, publicizing those dogs and screening applicants for those dogs
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit!

1. Ask for donations.
2. Request more donations or don’t spay/neuter and have the adoptee pay.
3. More fundraising
4. Ask for donations of food and supplies. (That’s what you forgot)
5. I get to write off my house and my farm!

And you think someone is getting rich doing this?

Notably, if it was you could look at the nonprofit filings and show us an example and it could be shut down for violating the nonprofit rules.

Let me know if you can find a credible rescue that operates anywhere in the dmv on any scale that doesn’t spay and neuter or has a 990 disclosing excessive salaries for staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

No, it’s a business.

Only adopt from non profits, then it’s not. Voila! Problem solved!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

No, it’s a business.

Nope, they are non-for-profits, and in order to qualify for that status - they should operate according to their stated mission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

No, it’s a business.

Only adopt from non profits, then it’s not. Voila! Problem solved!

Due diligence is the key - 990s are published on rescues websites, you can also check Charity navigator or GuideStar to vet a rescue before adoption

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have said it for a long time, modern day rescues are like puppy mills. You’re buying a dog from the rescue.

I see rescues shipping in dogs from other states or other countries when we have dogs in our local areas that need help. That’s when I know they’re in it for the money and tax breaks. After all, how else can they write off their homes, farms and homesteads as tax deductible?

Stop with that nonsense.
Rescues are run by dedicated people, and heavily rely on volunteers. There are much easier and stink-free ways of making money.

No, it’s a business.

Only adopt from non profits, then it’s not. Voila! Problem solved!

Due diligence is the key - 990s are published on rescues websites, you can also check Charity navigator or GuideStar to vet a rescue before adoption

Now, is there a website where we can check out the financials of the breeders?