Why is it so hard to accept that the students at better colleges are simply better students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

I don't even know where to start with this. Just no.

Just went through the process twice and this all checks out. The rockstar student who has so many great leadership roles? He “earned votes” by promising to bring alcohol to all the competitions. The talented art student with a perfect gpa? Her mom did a lot of her art projects, their city connections got her shows, and her parents’ money bought her tutoring to ensure all As and full pay to college helped get her in. There are kids who don’t do this, of course, but they too are hurt by the number of kids and parents willing to win at all costs.

They get away with it because most schools (especially privates) don’t want to ruin relationships and the kid’s future. They also want the big names for their matriculation list.

Maybe in private high schools, this might be true. I have not seen this behavior in public. I think in public, it takes millions (plural) to get your otherwise mediocre athlete into HYPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many people in here huffing and puffing that they don’t care about school rank when they hire.

Yet we know that grads from better schools make more money than grads from lower-tier schools both when they start and 20+ years after graduation. Thus, it is unquestionably clear that writ large, employers DO care about school rank, and do think that grads of top schools make better employees.

Money talks, bullsht stays on DCUM forums.

Hon, the reason those kids make more money is because they all know and hire each other, and then each other's kids. It's nothing to do with making 'better employees.' The term you're looking for is 'nepotism.' You wouldn't know the term, of course; they called it 'merit' at your 'better school,' to make you and the other gentlemen's C students feel better about your poor sweet little mediocre selves.

Hon, if you think every single Ivy grad is personally known to thousands of employers and HR departments across the land, you are truly deluded. That's not how it works. What is happening is that the HR departments and hiring managers get countless applications from countless kids they don't even know, and they are putting the elite school grads at the top of the stack to get interviewed under the assumption (whether you like it or not) that these are smart kids and good students. And then those kids interview well so they get hired.

After that, an elite diploma might be enough to get you in the door but if you don't perform, you won't get promoted. The fact that the grads of top schools do better 20 years after graduating than kids of lesser schools shows that the elite grads are, indeed, performing.

But keep coping that your kid who went to some crappy state school has only been held back due to nepotism, lol.

NP. Have you ever actively worked in an elite environment? I think it’s pretty clear you haven’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many people in here huffing and puffing that they don’t care about school rank when they hire.

Yet we know that grads from better schools make more money than grads from lower-tier schools both when they start and 20+ years after graduation. Thus, it is unquestionably clear that writ large, employers DO care about school rank, and do think that grads of top schools make better employees.

Money talks, bullsht stays on DCUM forums.

I see, you never hired an employee before.

I see you don’t understand the difference between data and anecdote.

(Hint: everyone in here claiming they don’t care about school rank when they hire = anecdote.)

DP. But it is in fact extremely clear you’ve never, ever hired before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Asian kid accepted on merit (non-athlete, non-legacy) at Bucknell will almost certainly be a better student than a minority kid at Harvard… or an athlete… or a white legacy kid. This dynamic has deepened in recent years as various quota programs—whether affirmative action, legacy, athletics, or over-reliance on BS extracurriculars that are mostly fake have overtaken the core objective of academic excellence at most schools. It’s terrible and will eventually screw these schools over,

The athletes are one of the biggest donor pools to these T10 schools and do exceptionally well salary-wise after graduation. Go look at the stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

I don't even know where to start with this. Just no.

Just went through the process twice and this all checks out. The rockstar student who has so many great leadership roles? He “earned votes” by promising to bring alcohol to all the competitions. The talented art student with a perfect gpa? Her mom did a lot of her art projects, their city connections got her shows, and her parents’ money bought her tutoring to ensure all As and full pay to college helped get her in. There are kids who don’t do this, of course, but they too are hurt by the number of kids and parents willing to win at all costs.

They get away with it because most schools (especially privates) don’t want to ruin relationships and the kid’s future. They also want the big names for their matriculation list.

Maybe in private high schools, this might be true. I have not seen this behavior in public. I think in public, it takes millions (plural) to get your otherwise mediocre athlete into HYPS.

It definitely happens in public. You are deluding yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

I don't even know where to start with this. Just no.

Just went through the process twice and this all checks out. The rockstar student who has so many great leadership roles? He “earned votes” by promising to bring alcohol to all the competitions. The talented art student with a perfect gpa? Her mom did a lot of her art projects, their city connections got her shows, and her parents’ money bought her tutoring to ensure all As and full pay to college helped get her in. There are kids who don’t do this, of course, but they too are hurt by the number of kids and parents willing to win at all costs.

They get away with it because most schools (especially privates) don’t want to ruin relationships and the kid’s future. They also want the big names for their matriculation list.

Maybe in private high schools, this might be true. I have not seen this behavior in public. I think in public, it takes millions (plural) to get your otherwise mediocre athlete into HYPS.

It definitely happens in public. You are deluding yourself.

Really? We are at a HS that "highly regarded on DCUM" and we have not yet seen it - but maybe we are too young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

I don't even know where to start with this. Just no.

Just went through the process twice and this all checks out. The rockstar student who has so many great leadership roles? He “earned votes” by promising to bring alcohol to all the competitions. The talented art student with a perfect gpa? Her mom did a lot of her art projects, their city connections got her shows, and her parents’ money bought her tutoring to ensure all As and full pay to college helped get her in. There are kids who don’t do this, of course, but they too are hurt by the number of kids and parents willing to win at all costs.

They get away with it because most schools (especially privates) don’t want to ruin relationships and the kid’s future. They also want the big names for their matriculation list.

Maybe in private high schools, this might be true. I have not seen this behavior in public. I think in public, it takes millions (plural) to get your otherwise mediocre athlete into HYPS.

It definitely happens in public. You are deluding yourself.

+1 publics are afraid of being sued and bad press - especially in the higher performing HS where every other parent is a lawyer or connected to news outlets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

You really think kids are ‘cheating’ themselves into top colleges? You think you know they are cheating and their teachers, guidance counselors and the admissions officers do not?

OP has his point slightly wrong. They may not be ‘better students’ because that is subjective and for everyone. They are ‘better candidates’ because that is objective and set by the colleges and their admissions departments, and totally whatever they think that means. As it should be.

Actually, there is a lot more cheating going on than when we were in high school, especially since the pandemic. We who work in the schools are aware of it and doing what we can to stop it/convince them they're not helping themselves any in the long run. It's not easy when they feel such ridiculous pressure to have as high a GPA as possible and aren't focused on learning the skills as much as they should be.

That’s irrelevant to the PPs claim kids were cheating themselves into top schools.

Do you really believe that there are so many kids who, at ages 14-17 are so mature and long-term goal focused that they can graduate with a 4.5 (no mistakes, high rigor), a 1490+, multiple sports, leadership positions, awards, volunteer work, and have such great personalities that they get glowing letters of Rec that all the best schools can fill their freshmen classes with them? I couldn’t hold my laughter writing that. It’s absurd. Lots of lying, cheating, and unethical assistance going on from the kids and parents. And lots of pretending not to notice from schools- both high schools and colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

You really think kids are ‘cheating’ themselves into top colleges? You think you know they are cheating and their teachers, guidance counselors and the admissions officers do not?

OP has his point slightly wrong. They may not be ‘better students’ because that is subjective and for everyone. They are ‘better candidates’ because that is objective and set by the colleges and their admissions departments, and totally whatever they think that means. As it should be.

Actually, there is a lot more cheating going on than when we were in high school, especially since the pandemic. We who work in the schools are aware of it and doing what we can to stop it/convince them they're not helping themselves any in the long run. It's not easy when they feel such ridiculous pressure to have as high a GPA as possible and aren't focused on learning the skills as much as they should be.

That’s irrelevant to the PPs claim kids were cheating themselves into top schools.

Do you really believe that there are so many kids who, at ages 14-17 are so mature and long-term goal focused that they can graduate with a 4.5 (no mistakes, high rigor), a 1490+, multiple sports, leadership positions, awards, volunteer work, and have such great personalities that they get glowing letters of Rec that all the best schools can fill their freshmen classes with them? I couldn’t hold my laughter writing that. It’s absurd. Lots of lying, cheating, and unethical assistance going on from the kids and parents. And lots of pretending not to notice from schools- both high schools and colleges.

Well since you can’t believe it, it must be true! And you know it but the people working at the high schools and colleges don’t! You’ve blown the lid off the situation!

Honestly, cheating is a thing, but no, top students do not get there by cheating. They just don’t. You’re wrong. And yes, there are plenty of kids who can do things that seem exceptional to the rest of us. Loads of them, actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

You really think kids are ‘cheating’ themselves into top colleges? You think you know they are cheating and their teachers, guidance counselors and the admissions officers do not?

OP has his point slightly wrong. They may not be ‘better students’ because that is subjective and for everyone. They are ‘better candidates’ because that is objective and set by the colleges and their admissions departments, and totally whatever they think that means. As it should be.

Actually, there is a lot more cheating going on than when we were in high school, especially since the pandemic. We who work in the schools are aware of it and doing what we can to stop it/convince them they're not helping themselves any in the long run. It's not easy when they feel such ridiculous pressure to have as high a GPA as possible and aren't focused on learning the skills as much as they should be.

That’s irrelevant to the PPs claim kids were cheating themselves into top schools.

Do you really believe that there are so many kids who, at ages 14-17 are so mature and long-term goal focused that they can graduate with a 4.5 (no mistakes, high rigor), a 1490+, multiple sports, leadership positions, awards, volunteer work, and have such great personalities that they get glowing letters of Rec that all the best schools can fill their freshmen classes with them? I couldn’t hold my laughter writing that. It’s absurd. Lots of lying, cheating, and unethical assistance going on from the kids and parents. And lots of pretending not to notice from schools- both high schools and colleges.

Clearly you have such a child. Good for you. Sincerely. I’ve been teaching for 20 years, though, and I can tell you that’s not uncommon. I teach higher-level classes and I have taught many straight-A athletes / musicians / etc. with tons of volunteer hours and awards. I’ve watched some go to top schools. I’ve watched some go to state universities. I’ve watched a couple go to academies or straight into the military. We are fortunate that we have SO MANY high performing students in our high schools.

You’re welcome to laugh, I suppose, but that doesn’t change reality. Sure, a few have cheated their way through with some help from their parents, but that only gets you so far. It’s really hard to cheat on the SAT, AP, and IB exams. Most have graduated honorably after putting in a ton of work. I’m proud of all of them, and the institutions they attend for college are lucky to have them (no matter which institution that is).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Asian kid accepted on merit (non-athlete, non-legacy) at Bucknell will almost certainly be a better student than a minority kid at Harvard… or an athlete… or a white legacy kid. This dynamic has deepened in recent years as various quota programs—whether affirmative action, legacy, athletics, or over-reliance on BS extracurriculars that are mostly fake have overtaken the core objective of academic excellence at most schools. It’s terrible and will eventually screw these schools over,

Their core object can be met with a dartboard. Once these kids are at a minimum level it is just social engineering. Like, pick kids with good social skills? Pick kids that can debate without anger. Maybe kids that can bust their bal** for a B- and accept that a B- was their best and be okay with it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

You really think kids are ‘cheating’ themselves into top colleges? You think you know they are cheating and their teachers, guidance counselors and the admissions officers do not?

OP has his point slightly wrong. They may not be ‘better students’ because that is subjective and for everyone. They are ‘better candidates’ because that is objective and set by the colleges and their admissions departments, and totally whatever they think that means. As it should be.

Actually, there is a lot more cheating going on than when we were in high school, especially since the pandemic. We who work in the schools are aware of it and doing what we can to stop it/convince them they're not helping themselves any in the long run. It's not easy when they feel such ridiculous pressure to have as high a GPA as possible and aren't focused on learning the skills as much as they should be.

That’s irrelevant to the PPs claim kids were cheating themselves into top schools.

Do you really believe that there are so many kids who, at ages 14-17 are so mature and long-term goal focused that they can graduate with a 4.5 (no mistakes, high rigor), a 1490+, multiple sports, leadership positions, awards, volunteer work, and have such great personalities that they get glowing letters of Rec that all the best schools can fill their freshmen classes with them? I couldn’t hold my laughter writing that. It’s absurd. Lots of lying, cheating, and unethical assistance going on from the kids and parents. And lots of pretending not to notice from schools- both high schools and colleges.

Clearly you have such a child. Good for you. Sincerely. I’ve been teaching for 20 years, though, and I can tell you that’s not uncommon. I teach higher-level classes and I have taught many straight-A athletes / musicians / etc. with tons of volunteer hours and awards. I’ve watched some go to top schools. I’ve watched some go to state universities. I’ve watched a couple go to academies or straight into the military. We are fortunate that we have SO MANY high performing students in our high schools.

You’re welcome to laugh, I suppose, but that doesn’t change reality. Sure, a few have cheated their way through with some help from their parents, but that only gets you so far. It’s really hard to cheat on the SAT, AP, and IB exams. Most have graduated honorably after putting in a ton of work. I’m proud of all of them, and the institutions they attend for college are lucky to have them (no matter which institution that is).

Thanks for this post. You appear to be a credit to your profession. Keep battling misinformation from people who rarely set foot inside a high school with your informed position. It helps.

[Anonymous]

I went to a little known SLAC and HYP for grad school. Am I a bad student?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

You really think kids are ‘cheating’ themselves into top colleges? You think you know they are cheating and their teachers, guidance counselors and the admissions officers do not?

OP has his point slightly wrong. They may not be ‘better students’ because that is subjective and for everyone. They are ‘better candidates’ because that is objective and set by the colleges and their admissions departments, and totally whatever they think that means. As it should be.

Actually, there is a lot more cheating going on than when we were in high school, especially since the pandemic. We who work in the schools are aware of it and doing what we can to stop it/convince them they're not helping themselves any in the long run. It's not easy when they feel such ridiculous pressure to have as high a GPA as possible and aren't focused on learning the skills as much as they should be.

That’s irrelevant to the PPs claim kids were cheating themselves into top schools.

Do you really believe that there are so many kids who, at ages 14-17 are so mature and long-term goal focused that they can graduate with a 4.5 (no mistakes, high rigor), a 1490+, multiple sports, leadership positions, awards, volunteer work, and have such great personalities that they get glowing letters of Rec that all the best schools can fill their freshmen classes with them? I couldn’t hold my laughter writing that. It’s absurd. Lots of lying, cheating, and unethical assistance going on from the kids and parents. And lots of pretending not to notice from schools- both high schools and colleges.

Clearly you have such a child. Good for you. Sincerely. I’ve been teaching for 20 years, though, and I can tell you that’s not uncommon. I teach higher-level classes and I have taught many straight-A athletes / musicians / etc. with tons of volunteer hours and awards. I’ve watched some go to top schools. I’ve watched some go to state universities. I’ve watched a couple go to academies or straight into the military. We are fortunate that we have SO MANY high performing students in our high schools.

You’re welcome to laugh, I suppose, but that doesn’t change reality. Sure, a few have cheated their way through with some help from their parents, but that only gets you so far. It’s really hard to cheat on the SAT, AP, and IB exams. Most have graduated honorably after putting in a ton of work. I’m proud of all of them, and the institutions they attend for college are lucky to have them (no matter which institution that is).

I actually don’t have such a child. I’m saying very few exist. I didn’t say they cheat on SATs. I’m saying very few kids are the WHOLE package but that’s what it takes to get into the top schools. It’s a show. If you really work with teenagers, you know how complicated these years are emotionally. Very few kids can really do it all without major helicoptering and help that crosses the line into cheating and lying and $$$ as the initial poster said. I don’t deny that they work hard. It’s just not enough to be so all around perfect for four years of adolescence and that’s what it takes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Not ADD: While others may have been better students because they were neurotypical, that doesn't mean they are smarter. If a school only wants neurotypical students, then they can keep accepting 4.7 kids with 1700 SAT scores.

2. Cheating: My child spent four hours on a project when others spent 15 minutes cheating. So there's another reason. Some of the so-called "better students" are cheating.

3. Rich AF: Some of the "better students" are merely rich. Jared Kushner. George Bush (C Student at Yale) Do you think Ivanka Trump (Penn) could have been a "better student"? LOL!

4. Zero Support for College: My parents knew zilch about applying to schools and didn't help me at all. With zero support and an undiagnosed learning disability, I got decent grades, placed into gifted classes, and accepted into a state flagship.


I'm surprised you couldn't think of the reasons yourself, OP.

You really think kids are ‘cheating’ themselves into top colleges? You think you know they are cheating and their teachers, guidance counselors and the admissions officers do not?

OP has his point slightly wrong. They may not be ‘better students’ because that is subjective and for everyone. They are ‘better candidates’ because that is objective and set by the colleges and their admissions departments, and totally whatever they think that means. As it should be.

Actually, there is a lot more cheating going on than when we were in high school, especially since the pandemic. We who work in the schools are aware of it and doing what we can to stop it/convince them they're not helping themselves any in the long run. It's not easy when they feel such ridiculous pressure to have as high a GPA as possible and aren't focused on learning the skills as much as they should be.

That’s irrelevant to the PPs claim kids were cheating themselves into top schools.

Do you really believe that there are so many kids who, at ages 14-17 are so mature and long-term goal focused that they can graduate with a 4.5 (no mistakes, high rigor), a 1490+, multiple sports, leadership positions, awards, volunteer work, and have such great personalities that they get glowing letters of Rec that all the best schools can fill their freshmen classes with them? I couldn’t hold my laughter writing that. It’s absurd. Lots of lying, cheating, and unethical assistance going on from the kids and parents. And lots of pretending not to notice from schools- both high schools and colleges.

Clearly you have such a child. Good for you. Sincerely. I’ve been teaching for 20 years, though, and I can tell you that’s not uncommon. I teach higher-level classes and I have taught many straight-A athletes / musicians / etc. with tons of volunteer hours and awards. I’ve watched some go to top schools. I’ve watched some go to state universities. I’ve watched a couple go to academies or straight into the military. We are fortunate that we have SO MANY high performing students in our high schools.

You’re welcome to laugh, I suppose, but that doesn’t change reality. Sure, a few have cheated their way through with some help from their parents, but that only gets you so far. It’s really hard to cheat on the SAT, AP, and IB exams. Most have graduated honorably after putting in a ton of work. I’m proud of all of them, and the institutions they attend for college are lucky to have them (no matter which institution that is).

I actually don’t have such a child. I’m saying very few exist. I didn’t say they cheat on SATs. I’m saying very few kids are the WHOLE package but that’s what it takes to get into the top schools. It’s a show. If you really work with teenagers, you know how complicated these years are emotionally. Very few kids can really do it all without major helicoptering and help that crosses the line into cheating and lying and $$$ as the initial poster said. I don’t deny that they work hard. It’s just not enough to be so all around perfect for four years of adolescence and that’s what it takes.

+1

I agree with this.