The death of Allie Hart and the need for safer streets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, this child was riding her bike and was coming down a hill and just zipped into the intersection with dad far behind. I am a careful and slooow driver but bikes on the sidewalk are always tricky because they’re moving so much faster than pedestrians.

Read the article, please.

I did. It says she was in the intersection with her father and nothing about the bike, which we know she was riding. The article is not an accident report.

You read the article, and that was your takeaway? Wow.

Why are you being obtuse? I made a comment that the child rode into the intersection without stopping. You told me to read the article, which said nothing about how the accident actually happened.

I agree we need safer streets, and I know there are lots of tools that can be implemented to help pedestrians cross safely. I also think bikes (and the horrid motorized scooters) don’t belong on sidewalks, in general, because drivers are looking for pedestrians, not other vehicles. Obviously kids need to ride on the sidewalk, but they need to have a parent RIGHT there to make sure they’re safe when they are in the intersection.

This is an article about a child who was killed by a driver while she was bicycling in the crosswalk, and you want to make this about things parents should do to prevent drivers from killing their children.

Honestly, Allie is a poor example for this article. I get why they write about her, because it’s unbearably tragic, but her story hasn’t got much to do with the innovations they are talking about, other than the possibility of self braking cars that sense pedestrians. But she wouldn’t have been saved by a lower speed limit, since the driver was obviously not going very fast. It would have been better to focus on deaths that could have been prevented.

But one of the takeaways with her story is that vehicle size impeded driver view of her and that US vehicle size is growing at the expense of pedestrian safety. European style vans are not as big in the front. Perhaps we push for better safety engineering from auto manufacturers to minimize obstruction of view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a thread about this article on the DC sub-Reddit. One poster summed up the current situation quite well:

“As a parent of a similar-aged child, in the next neighborhood over, who always rides a bike, this is easily my biggest fear. Its probably the one thing i have actual wake-up-in-the-night nightmares about.

I don't know that this specific accident fits this, but my observation is the issue is entirely cultural and i severely doubt infrastructure improvements will do anything to stop it.

It's not run-of-the-mill speeding or distracted driving. In our area, it feels like about 1 in 100 drivers are absolute garbage human beings. Just complete c*nts. They blow thru cross walks while youre trying to cross with a kid and then yell at you; they pull into the opposite lane to go around cars to take a right on red with someone walking. They blow thru red lights 2 seconds late and flip you off. they accelerate through no left turn intersections and want to fight if you happen to be crossing.

I had some going 50 mph in residential eckington who went around me and then stopped in the middle of the road to fight (no provocation on my part).

a neighbor from a few blocks over got his eye socket broken in a road rage incident where he was a pedestrian.

there was a head-on collision at morning rush hour this Tuesday because some jerkoff was flying the wrong way up a one-way residential trying to get to rhode island ave.

i could go on and on. they almost always have Maryland plates, and they almost always are the most ignorant a**holes I've ever encountered. the main characters in their own stories, seemingly completely oblivious that you can change a families life in a split second because they're insanely irresponsible with a fast moving thousand pound piece of metal.

i really have no solution. but i can say its very taxing to have to be constantly hyper vigilant.”

And this is exactly why you have to have your eyes or hands on your kids at all times. This isn’t going to change anytime soon.

Are you serious?! THIS is the lesson you draw from this?

NP, Not sure why you are so shocked, you cannot trust the drivers, even when safety changes are made. You should always follow Defensive driving, defensive biking, defensive walking, etc.

Poster: Drivers are terrible, the roads are violent and dangerous.
Possible response 1: Yes, we need to make the roads safe.
Possible response 2: That's why you have to keep a firm grip on your children!

Response 1 and 2 are correct.

+ 1. Look around. I see kids all the time scootering or riding their bike way out ahead of their parents. What happened here could happen to any of those kids if they don’t stop. I think parents tend to keep a firm grip on their 2 yr old and then get lax at 4 and assume their kid will stop every time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a thread about this article on the DC sub-Reddit. One poster summed up the current situation quite well:

“As a parent of a similar-aged child, in the next neighborhood over, who always rides a bike, this is easily my biggest fear. Its probably the one thing i have actual wake-up-in-the-night nightmares about.

I don't know that this specific accident fits this, but my observation is the issue is entirely cultural and i severely doubt infrastructure improvements will do anything to stop it.

It's not run-of-the-mill speeding or distracted driving. In our area, it feels like about 1 in 100 drivers are absolute garbage human beings. Just complete c*nts. They blow thru cross walks while youre trying to cross with a kid and then yell at you; they pull into the opposite lane to go around cars to take a right on red with someone walking. They blow thru red lights 2 seconds late and flip you off. they accelerate through no left turn intersections and want to fight if you happen to be crossing.

I had some going 50 mph in residential eckington who went around me and then stopped in the middle of the road to fight (no provocation on my part).

a neighbor from a few blocks over got his eye socket broken in a road rage incident where he was a pedestrian.

there was a head-on collision at morning rush hour this Tuesday because some jerkoff was flying the wrong way up a one-way residential trying to get to rhode island ave.

i could go on and on. they almost always have Maryland plates, and they almost always are the most ignorant a**holes I've ever encountered. the main characters in their own stories, seemingly completely oblivious that you can change a families life in a split second because they're insanely irresponsible with a fast moving thousand pound piece of metal.

i really have no solution. but i can say its very taxing to have to be constantly hyper vigilant.”

And this is exactly why you have to have your eyes or hands on your kids at all times. This isn’t going to change anytime soon.

Are you serious?! THIS is the lesson you draw from this?

NP, Not sure why you are so shocked, you cannot trust the drivers, even when safety changes are made. You should always follow Defensive driving, defensive biking, defensive walking, etc.

Poster: Drivers are terrible, the roads are violent and dangerous.
Possible response 1: Yes, we need to make the roads safe.
Possible response 2: That's why you have to keep a firm grip on your children!

Response 1 and 2 are correct.

+ 1. Look around. I see kids all the time scootering or riding their bike way out ahead of their parents. What happened here could happen to any of those kids if they don’t stop. I think parents tend to keep a firm grip on their 2 yr old and then get lax at 4 and assume their kid will stop every time.

We've been trying the "personal responsibility" approach to drivers killing kids for 100 years now. It doesn't work. Time to try something different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, this child was riding her bike and was coming down a hill and just zipped into the intersection with dad far behind. I am a careful and slooow driver but bikes on the sidewalk are always tricky because they’re moving so much faster than pedestrians.

Read the article, please.

I did. It says she was in the intersection with her father and nothing about the bike, which we know she was riding. The article is not an accident report.

You read the article, and that was your takeaway? Wow.

Why are you being obtuse? I made a comment that the child rode into the intersection without stopping. You told me to read the article, which said nothing about how the accident actually happened.

I agree we need safer streets, and I know there are lots of tools that can be implemented to help pedestrians cross safely. I also think bikes (and the horrid motorized scooters) don’t belong on sidewalks, in general, because drivers are looking for pedestrians, not other vehicles. Obviously kids need to ride on the sidewalk, but they need to have a parent RIGHT there to make sure they’re safe when they are in the intersection.

This is an article about a child who was killed by a driver while she was bicycling in the crosswalk, and you want to make this about things parents should do to prevent drivers from killing their children.

Honestly, Allie is a poor example for this article. I get why they write about her, because it’s unbearably tragic, but her story hasn’t got much to do with the innovations they are talking about, other than the possibility of self braking cars that sense pedestrians. But she wouldn’t have been saved by a lower speed limit, since the driver was obviously not going very fast. It would have been better to focus on deaths that could have been prevented.

Lower speed limits are not the point. Speed limits are just another road sign for drivers to ignore. We need changes in road design that cause drivers to drive more slowly, see people better, and stop for people better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, this child was riding her bike and was coming down a hill and just zipped into the intersection with dad far behind. I am a careful and slooow driver but bikes on the sidewalk are always tricky because they’re moving so much faster than pedestrians.

Read the article, please.

I did. It says she was in the intersection with her father and nothing about the bike, which we know she was riding. The article is not an accident report.

You read the article, and that was your takeaway? Wow.

Why are you being obtuse? I made a comment that the child rode into the intersection without stopping. You told me to read the article, which said nothing about how the accident actually happened.

I agree we need safer streets, and I know there are lots of tools that can be implemented to help pedestrians cross safely. I also think bikes (and the horrid motorized scooters) don’t belong on sidewalks, in general, because drivers are looking for pedestrians, not other vehicles. Obviously kids need to ride on the sidewalk, but they need to have a parent RIGHT there to make sure they’re safe when they are in the intersection.

This is an article about a child who was killed by a driver while she was bicycling in the crosswalk, and you want to make this about things parents should do to prevent drivers from killing their children.

Honestly, Allie is a poor example for this article. I get why they write about her, because it’s unbearably tragic, but her story hasn’t got much to do with the innovations they are talking about, other than the possibility of self braking cars that sense pedestrians. But she wouldn’t have been saved by a lower speed limit, since the driver was obviously not going very fast. It would have been better to focus on deaths that could have been prevented.

Lower speed limits are not the point. Speed limits are just another road sign for drivers to ignore. We need changes in road design that cause drivers to drive more slowly, see people better, and stop for people better.

. +1 and +1 to the PP who wants smarter car design, too.

[Anonymous]

I really think we need to tax SUVs like crazy.

They are gas guzzling, our city streets are not made for them, and they are a threat to safety.

Tax breaks brought us SUVs, maybe they can save us from them too.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Hybrid/story?id=97505&page=1

Obviously this wouldn't be the only step to take but as someone constantly trying to get around SUVs who pretend city streets are one way just because they decided to buy a huge car, it would sure be one good step.

[Anonymous]

Too much of driver's attention is on their phones.

I see more drivers going through my residential DC street with their eyes on their phone held up at steering wheel height than drivers with both hands on the steering wheel.

Traffic starts at most red lights are delayed these days, as the driver of the first car at the light has their head down looking at their phone, and is relying on their peripheral vision for warning that they can start driving again. You'll see a driver looking down at his phone, starts driving while their light is still red, while they slowly lift their head up from their phone, only to realize that the lane next to them started moving because they had a green turning light, but their own light is still red. When there's only 1 lane of traffic at the light, someone likely will have to honk their horn, because the first, and even the second car at the light won't notice it's gone green.

Phone addiction is so rampant that no-one seems to realize how much drivers' attention has deteriorated, and there doesn't seem to be anything being done to fix it.

It's becoming harder to switch lanes on DC streets, because drivers' attention is not 'available' to notice your intent to change lanes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Too much of driver's attention is on their phones.

I see more drivers going through my residential DC street with their eyes on their phone held up at steering wheel height than drivers with both hands on the steering wheel.

Traffic starts at most red lights are delayed these days, as the driver of the first car at the light has their head down looking at their phone, and is relying on their peripheral vision for warning that they can start driving again. You'll see a driver looking down at his phone, starts driving while their light is still red, while they slowly lift their head up from their phone, only to realize that the lane next to them started moving because they had a green turning light, but their own light is still red. When there's only 1 lane of traffic at the light, someone likely will have to honk their horn, because the first, and even the second car at the light won't notice it's gone green.

Phone addiction is so rampant that no-one seems to realize how much drivers' attention has deteriorated, and there doesn't seem to be anything being done to fix it.

It's becoming harder to switch lanes on DC streets, because drivers' attention is not 'available' to notice your intent to change lanes.

When I lived in the burbs, police would actively pull people over that they saw on their cellphones. Or not using a turn signal. Or running lights/stop signs/ Or speeding.

In addition, police would be in nondescript vehicles that you wouldn't notice as police to help catch people.

Of course, DC does zero for traffic enforcement in any respect. Enforcing laws on the books means basic traffic enforcement, not speed/stop/red light cameras, then we do nothing for people who rack up years of tickets.

DC driving culture is the way it is because there is literally zero enforcement and people know it. They know they can run lights, stops, speed, and nothing will happen to them ever. This is especially true for people who live in MD and VA. If you live there, but park in a parking garage for work, it is actually true that you can drive like a nutcase every single day and you know that nothing will ever, ever happen to you, you can accumulate tickets and DC wouldn't even be able to boot your car in a garage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

When I lived in the burbs, police would actively pull people over that they saw on their cellphones. Or not using a turn signal. Or running lights/stop signs/ Or speeding.

In addition, police would be in nondescript vehicles that you wouldn't notice as police to help catch people.

Of course, DC does zero for traffic enforcement in any respect. Enforcing laws on the books means basic traffic enforcement, not speed/stop/red light cameras, then we do nothing for people who rack up years of tickets.

DC driving culture is the way it is because there is literally zero enforcement and people know it. They know they can run lights, stops, speed, and nothing will happen to them ever. This is especially true for people who live in MD and VA. If you live there, but park in a parking garage for work, it is actually true that you can drive like a nutcase every single day and you know that nothing will ever, ever happen to you, you can accumulate tickets and DC wouldn't even be able to boot your car in a garage.

Automated enforcement is enforcement.

The problem is that Maryland and Virginia drivers can escape the automated enforcement - although DC drivers can too. DC should boot all their cars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

When I lived in the burbs, police would actively pull people over that they saw on their cellphones. Or not using a turn signal. Or running lights/stop signs/ Or speeding.

In addition, police would be in nondescript vehicles that you wouldn't notice as police to help catch people.

Of course, DC does zero for traffic enforcement in any respect. Enforcing laws on the books means basic traffic enforcement, not speed/stop/red light cameras, then we do nothing for people who rack up years of tickets.

DC driving culture is the way it is because there is literally zero enforcement and people know it. They know they can run lights, stops, speed, and nothing will happen to them ever. This is especially true for people who live in MD and VA. If you live there, but park in a parking garage for work, it is actually true that you can drive like a nutcase every single day and you know that nothing will ever, ever happen to you, you can accumulate tickets and DC wouldn't even be able to boot your car in a garage.

Automated enforcement is enforcement.

The problem is that Maryland and Virginia drivers can escape the automated enforcement - although DC drivers can too. DC should boot all their cars.

MD and VA drivers commit the vast majority of offenses. They can do this without repercussion. They can renew their registration, driver's license, without issue. DC essentially has no enforcement for the majority of offenders.

Boot eligible cars as of Nov 2021. Note that at this time, DC only had 6 people booting and it would have taken them 25 years to boot all of these cars if they can even find them. DC has expanded the boot team recently due to public outcry.

DC = 43,868
VA = 167,937
MD = 335,908


If a DC/MD driver comes into the city for work and only parks in a garage (their private work garage), DC cannot boot their car at all. Only if the DC boot team happens to come across the car on a public street/area.
I suppose they more could be done if DC MPD actually ran their plates and pulled them over while driving. But we know DC MPD does not pull people over for traffic enforcement whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a thread about this article on the DC sub-Reddit. One poster summed up the current situation quite well:

“As a parent of a similar-aged child, in the next neighborhood over, who always rides a bike, this is easily my biggest fear. Its probably the one thing i have actual wake-up-in-the-night nightmares about.

I don't know that this specific accident fits this, but my observation is the issue is entirely cultural and i severely doubt infrastructure improvements will do anything to stop it.

It's not run-of-the-mill speeding or distracted driving. In our area, it feels like about 1 in 100 drivers are absolute garbage human beings. Just complete c*nts. They blow thru cross walks while youre trying to cross with a kid and then yell at you; they pull into the opposite lane to go around cars to take a right on red with someone walking. They blow thru red lights 2 seconds late and flip you off. they accelerate through no left turn intersections and want to fight if you happen to be crossing.

I had some going 50 mph in residential eckington who went around me and then stopped in the middle of the road to fight (no provocation on my part).

a neighbor from a few blocks over got his eye socket broken in a road rage incident where he was a pedestrian.

there was a head-on collision at morning rush hour this Tuesday because some jerkoff was flying the wrong way up a one-way residential trying to get to rhode island ave.

i could go on and on. they almost always have Maryland plates, and they almost always are the most ignorant a**holes I've ever encountered. the main characters in their own stories, seemingly completely oblivious that you can change a families life in a split second because they're insanely irresponsible with a fast moving thousand pound piece of metal.

i really have no solution. but i can say its very taxing to have to be constantly hyper vigilant.”

And this is exactly why you have to have your eyes or hands on your kids at all times. This isn’t going to change anytime soon.

Are you serious?! THIS is the lesson you draw from this?

NP, Not sure why you are so shocked, you cannot trust the drivers, even when safety changes are made. You should always follow Defensive driving, defensive biking, defensive walking, etc.

Poster: Drivers are terrible, the roads are violent and dangerous.
Possible response 1: Yes, we need to make the roads safe.
Possible response 2: That's why you have to keep a firm grip on your children!

Response 1 and 2 are correct.

+ 1. Look around. I see kids all the time scootering or riding their bike way out ahead of their parents. What happened here could happen to any of those kids if they don’t stop. I think parents tend to keep a firm grip on their 2 yr old and then get lax at 4 and assume their kid will stop every time.

We've been trying the "personal responsibility" approach to drivers killing kids for 100 years now. It doesn't work. Time to try something different.

Eliminate cars and trucks?

[Anonymous]

Gig economy companies - Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, Amazon etc. - generally do background checks of people they employ. They also have the information of the vehicles that the drivers are using. It would be very simple for DC to require that these companies verify that these vehicles do not have any outstanding fines and, if they do, bar those vehicles from being driven commercially in the city. I understand that DC cannot go into private garages to boot vehicles. I do not understand why they continue to allow people who have no respect for the city's road rules to continue to do business by vehicle in the city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gig economy companies - Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, Amazon etc. - generally do background checks of people they employ. They also have the information of the vehicles that the drivers are using. It would be very simple for DC to require that these companies verify that these vehicles do not have any outstanding fines and, if they do, bar those vehicles from being driven commercially in the city. I understand that DC cannot go into private garages to boot vehicles. I do not understand why they continue to allow people who have no respect for the city's road rules to continue to do business by vehicle in the city.

Such vehicles can also be fitted with forced speed limits. My DH's company does this for their vehicles to essentially force them not to speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A red light camera would not have helped, but the bump outs would. We should have those around the schools at a minimum.

The DC Council has passed the Safe Routes to School legislation that will overhaul safety measures around schools. Now if we can just get parents to not double park or block cycle lanes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A red light camera would not have helped, but the bump outs would. We should have those around the schools at a minimum.

The DC Council has passed the Safe Routes to School legislation that will overhaul safety measures around schools. Now if we can just get parents to not double park or block cycle lanes.

They should extend it to include playgrounds and community centers.